Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by sejintenej » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:51 am

I suggest that it is a question of proof sufficient to get a guilty verdict in the courts. There was a time when the word of an adult, not even someone as qualified as a teacher, would win against the claims of a kid when there were no credible witnesses.
Otherwise the school could be sued for slander/libel, breach of contract .....

Things have changed since those days
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by J.R. » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:41 pm

rockfreak wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:25 pm
Last night's ITV documentary by Alex Renton showed up the reluctance of the boarding school authorities and bodies like the Independent Schools Couuncil to allow these scandals to spread too widely. Offenders were allowed to quietly leave and in some cases were still given references for jobs at other schools. Renton's old prep school Ashdown House was also the alma mater of the young Viscount Linley and I seem to remember a picture of him being presented by Princess Margaret to the towering, beetle-browed headmaster Billy Williamson and looking somewhat overawed. He had reason to be because Renton has portrayed Williamson as a gleeful sadist and Linley himself was apparently not impressed. Michael Scuffil has pointed up the equal amount of beating and verbal abuse that happened at these places, some of which I remember from my time. What is it about the British class system that the well-off will happily consign their children to these places in order to have them join "the establishment"?

I watched Renton's programme with horror, Freaky.

I have a very sneaky feeling that many more skeletons are soon to come tumbling out of the cupboard !!
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by michael scuffil » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:58 pm

Chrissie Boy wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:46 pm

Could all the victims, paid or otherwise, go to the police today and see their abusers successfully prosecuted? Or are the abusers in some sense exempt from prosecution because they were only teenagers at the time and weren't in a position of trust (and anyway everyone does silly things in their teens)?
I think the main problem, apart from that of proof, would be establishing the nature of the offence. While I did hear of non-consensual sex between boys at CH occasionally, and once as a monitor had to deal with it, the huge majority of sex between boys (and of course there was a vast amount) was I think perfectly consensual. You might wonder what 'consent' means when talking about, say, 13 or 14-year-olds. But the same problem exists in the outside world today. The police and CPS have made it perfectly clear that they wouldn't think of prosecuting a 16-year-old boy who had sex with his 15-year-old girlfriend, even though legally she cannot consent to it.
Of course, in the early 60s, any sex between males, consent or not, was illegal, and until the 80s you had to be over 21. That muddies the issue still further. My view is that historic cases of any sort ought not to be prosecutable. They aren't in most of Europe. (In Germany, the limitation is roughly the same as the maximum term of imprisonment that can be imposed for the offence in question, or at most 20 years. Except for murder, where there is no limitation
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by Spoonbill » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:08 am

michael scuffil wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:58 pm
My view is that historic cases of any sort ought not to be prosecutable.
Seriously?

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by rockfreak » Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:45 pm

It may be that today's greater readiness to come forward and complain (and be believed) will aid prosecutions. I can see what MS is saying in that the longer these things disappear into the mists of time the harder it is to get at the facts.

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by michael scuffil » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:27 pm

Spoonbill wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:08 am
michael scuffil wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:58 pm
My view is that historic cases of any sort ought not to be prosecutable.
Seriously?
Yes, seriously. I live in a country where the right not to be tried after a certain period is regarded with the same sort of reverence as the British regard trial by jury. Britain and Ireland are, I think, the only countries in Europe which do not have limitations of this sort. In Germany, in the case of offences against minors, the clock only starts ticking when the victim turns 18. So if an offence was committed in, say, 1985, and the victim was 13, and the maximum penalty was 14 years (?), then the offence would be prosecutable until 2004. There would have been, in the view of most countries, plenty of time to bring a prosecution before that. Nothing is known now that wasn't known then.
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by Mid A 15 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:29 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:27 pm
Spoonbill wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:08 am
michael scuffil wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:58 pm
My view is that historic cases of any sort ought not to be prosecutable.
Seriously?
Yes, seriously. I live in a country where the right not to be tried after a certain period is regarded with the same sort of reverence as the British regard trial by jury. Britain and Ireland are, I think, the only countries in Europe which do not have limitations of this sort. In Germany, in the case of offences against minors, the clock only starts ticking when the victim turns 18. So if an offence was committed in, say, 1985, and the victim was 13, and the maximum penalty was 14 years (?), then the offence would be prosecutable until 2004. There would have been, in the view of most countries, plenty of time to bring a prosecution before that. Nothing is known now that wasn't known then.
Other than the sheer number of victims in the kind of case that generated this thread.

I think the stance you advocate has a lot of merit in most other circumstances but there is also an argument that numbers coming forward subsequently can be further evidence and don't the victims deserve (awful word but apt as I cannot think of better just now) 'closure' for events they could do nothing about at the time?
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by dsmg » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:26 pm

I'm with the Spoon on this. No way should crimes prescribe IMO (not sure if that's the correct legal term), and definitely not ones of this ilk. Evidence often comes to light after many years, why should a criminal get away with it just because a certain number of years have elapsed? Here in Spain it's incredible the number of corruption cases that never make it to court due to the slowness of the legal system and the prevarication carried out by fellow politicians to avoid colleagues being tried. In fact opposition parties are trying to force the ruling party to bring in legislation to avoid such situations. Unlikely that it'll happen as they have by far the highest number of corrupt politicians. They may get their comeuppance in the next general election as their lead has been greatly eroded since all these cases hit the headlines.
I feel that somebody who fiddles with young children should face the consequences of their actions no matter how long has elapsed. I seem to remember Potty Burr, as he was referred to in my time at CH, actually standing in the shallow end of the pool in his trunks during swim time which always struck me as a bit strange.
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by J.R. » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:53 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:27 pm
Spoonbill wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:08 am
michael scuffil wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:58 pm
My view is that historic cases of any sort ought not to be prosecutable.
Seriously?
Yes, seriously. I live in a country where the right not to be tried after a certain period is regarded with the same sort of reverence as the British regard trial by jury. Britain and Ireland are, I think, the only countries in Europe which do not have limitations of this sort. In Germany, in the case of offences against minors, the clock only starts ticking when the victim turns 18. So if an offence was committed in, say, 1985, and the victim was 13, and the maximum penalty was 14 years (?), then the offence would be prosecutable until 2004. There would have been, in the view of most countries, plenty of time to bring a prosecution before that. Nothing is known now that wasn't known then.

Ar - The good old 'Statute of Limitation' !!
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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by rockfreak » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:19 pm

Now that the Harvey Weinstein revelations have come tumbling out it may be that people, and witnesses, will be encouraged to shout at the time, rather than bottle it up and complain later. This is precisely what the #MeToo movement is trying to encourage. I have three daughters and they tell me that unwanted comments, heavyweight advances, occasional gropes and, in one case stalking, are par for the course. If today's protest movements raise consciousness and help anyone who feels menaced to shout "foul" then so be it. Not before time. While I'm not entirely in agreement with the Andea Dworkin branch of the American feminist movement who blame everything on "the patriarchy" (after all, if there's a war to be fought who will fight it other than the patriarchy - and OK, these days with some back-up help from the matriarchy) but women, children and anyone in any kind of vulnerable position should be entitled to be listened to. I think that #MeToo is a valuable corrective to generations of male power and assumptiveness, and the same might be said about young children at boarding schools. Let's hope they blow the whistle sooner than when I was at CH.

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by Spoonbill » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:52 am

Hear hear.

But as for removing Waterhouse's Hylas and the Nymphs from display at Manchester Art Gallery, that's just plain silly. And they're not even selling postcards of it any more either. A bit of an overreaction, I'd say. But then what do I know? I'm just a fat old git who grew up in the 1970s.

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by rockfreak » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Painters of yore seem to have been a bit more worldly and earthy. Hylas is positively restrained in comparison with Bronzino' s 'Allegory of Cupid and Venus' in the National and dating from the sixteenth century; a positive paean to heavy petting between what appears to be a fourteen year old Cupid and a nubile Venus who looks definitely up for it.

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by bakunin » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:28 am

There's a reason the Germans revere the right not to be tried after a certain period of time.

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by richardb » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:20 pm

Does anyone know what happened to Karim as it appears to have finished?

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Re: Date of sentencing of Webb and Burr

Post by Spoonbill » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:15 pm

Last Friday's piece in the Brighton Argus concludes with the words 'The trial continues', so presumably there's been a hold-up of some kind, as the Saturday edition didn't mention the trial at all.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/n ... ____court/

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