Non-members, non-posting members and general coyness

[Angela Woodford]

Its all about web 2.0 these days... Facebook/Myspace, etc..... Forums seem a little old fashioned.. Maybe

Ash, can you explain the difference to me - is facebook or myspace an individual statement of personality and occupation as opposed to the community feeling of a forum? I really don't know, incredible as it may seem! I need these things explained to me, unfortunately!

Munch

[Ash]

Its all about web 2.0 these days... Facebook/Myspace, etc..... Forums seem a little old fashioned.. Maybe

Ash, can you explain the difference to me - is facebook or myspace an individual statement of personality and occupation as opposed to the community feeling of a forum? I really don't know, incredible as it may seem! I need these things explained to me, unfortunately!

Munch

Oh dear, I'm going to answer that in a massively convoluted manner. I am an interactive designer in advertising (IE a web geek), and because of this may get a bit jingoistic, for that I apologise in advance.

I will try and be brief and to the point as far as I can... I do like a good discussion though.

The way I see it is that sites like Facebook allow the user to relatively superficially express their personality, yes. Wheras a traditional forum, allows the user to express their opinion and engage in a real conversation. Traditional forums allow expression of personality through ideas, rather than through more visceral means.

(By the time you have finished reading this, you'll probably visualise me as a geeky bloke in a darkened room, surrounded by computers, with glasses and probably no girlfriend... And you won't be far from the truth - This is kinda great though. Imagination is half the charm of a traditional forum)

I do have a girlfriend though

On a forum such as this, the obvious point is that the written word is more important, so perhaps allows keener expression. I'd say a traditional forum tends to allow relationships to develop in a more natural fashion, slowly. You tend to know people you talk to in a more intellectual fashion, rather than simply liking the look of them, or sharing their taste in music. In general, information tends to be far more interesting and often has a depth that is lacking on many social-networking sites. Old style forums certainly have more of a community feeling and definitely have far better content than social networks.

Web 2.0 sites seem a little like small-talk, and a traditional forum tends to be a real conversation, a real developing discourse. The beauty of this, over say Facebook, is that it is constantly in a state of development, moving all the time. The only real way that information moves on Facebook is the addition of friends and how many people you can turn into a virtual vampire. To me, ultimately vacuous.

Facebook and other sites tend to eschew this idea of discourse in favour of pure contact. Discussion on social networking sites (particularly on individual user pages) tends to be succinct and perhaps ultimately superficial. Much like telephone text messaging, pehaps.

Where these sites really come into their own and really succeed, is that they empower the user. Most people don't know how to create a website. These sites allow this.

The best example out there of this empowerment to create your own site, and have complete control over it's content is http://www.webjam.com unlike Facebook or MySpace, you are not bound by an inherant structure. You can really make the page your own.

So, in answer to your question, you are right. Social networking sites do allow a certain level of user-personality expression. Although this, in the end tends to lack real depth and errs towards the superficial. For example, you can visit 20 Myspace pages, and perhaps feel that the personality expressed is designed mainly by MySpace (in terms of structure) and streamlines user-personality into a rather homogenised whole as a result. It tends to be more of a CV for the user, rather than a complete expression of who they are.

For me, that's a little worrying, that user personality can be boxed into a certain format, no matter how customised the page. Make no mistake, that your imprint online is your ACTUAL personality - it isn't - it's virtual, an avatar of your real self. The Post-Modernist philosopher Baudrillard explains the idea of personality simulacra and identity disappearance better than I ever could.

The old style internet seemed a far more vibrant and creative place to be. Nowadays people tend to flit between social-networks and don't really worry about the potential the internet has. This is not really a good thing as large corporations are sewing up the user experience and ultimately, through that, controlling the user's journey from advertisment to advertisment. Ultimately blinkering the user's experience of the web and manipulating them to limit their journey through the virtual landscape.

Sorry for the long answer, you did ask. - Terrible grammar, too, you wouldn't know I went to a good school.

Part 2 of Ash's interweb rant, same time, next week....

[Ash]

Oh god... I just read that back... I'm really not that boring...

[Ajarn Philip]

As the man said, Angela - you did ask! But it was a cracking answer, Ash, which I found interesting and enlightening.

Like most of us who reach a 'certain age' (and then see it rapidly disappearing into the past), I don't feel any older in most ways. On the contrary. (Memo to self: stop grunting when getting up from a chair...). But every now and again something gives me a jolting little reminder that I'm not as young as I used to be. Ash's comment that forums are a little old fashioned was one of those little jolts. After all, I only discovered this little niche a few weeks ago.

I bought my first computer in '96, and with it came an aol cdrom providing access to the internet. Chatrooms were my first step, and I found them fascinating. For a few weeks. But even after the novelty wore off, the immediacy of communication and the access to information seemed quite astonishing. Nowadays, as well as being a bottomless pit of sources of reference, the internet allows me to see pictures of my grandchildren, who are growing up in my absence. The next step (well behind the times, as usual) is to get a Skype connection and a webcam so that we can see each other while we talk.

Ash didn't mention YouTube. I've heard of it, but don't know much about, and had never really felt any need to find out until yesterday. Some months ago, someone in the US posted some unflattering and offensive pictures of the King of Thailand (who is hugely respected and widely revered), and access to YouTube was blocked. YouTube has apparently created a programme that will prevent any repetition, and its back in business in this part of the world. I suppose I'd better take a look...


(Julian, I realise I'm straying off topic. Do you want to split this?)

[Katharine]

I found Ash's answer very interesting. I have been using computers longer than Philip but at first as word processors (anyone remember Locoscript and Amstrad computers?). I have never felt the need to push myself further into discovering more about the wide wide world of Facebook etc, I am happy in what I do at the moment.

Now that I am officially an OAP, I must take care not to atrophy!

[Angela Woodford]

The way I see it is that sites like Facebook allow the user to relatively superficially express their personality, yes. Wheras a traditional forum, allows the user to express their opinion and engage in a real conversation. Traditional forums allow expression of personality through ideas, rather than through more visceral means.

Thank you for this posting, Ash. You're explaining with great skill what I kind-of-realised, but needed extra clarification.

(By the time you have finished reading this, you'll probably visualise me as a geeky bloke in a darkened room, surrounded by computers, with glasses and probably no girlfriend... And you won't be far from the truth - This is kinda great though. Imagination is half the charm of a traditional forum)

Isn't it just? However, so far I've found that my visualisations of Forum members have been absolutely right when I've met the people with whom I've "talked" with via the Forum. JR and Mr Plum I spotted immediately across an outside-a-crowded Courtroom area. The Hertford Girls I knew still look just the same (youthful and radiant!) and no, you're definitely not a geeky bloke, Ash. One day, I'll get to meet Mr Knight, the heroic climber of the Water Tower by night!

Old style forums certainly have more of a community feeling and definitely have far better content than social networks.

The CH Forum's been tremendously cathartic to me when it's come to trolling and fossicking through Hertford memories - funny, furious, resentful, rewarding, nostalgic. Thanks to shoz, the Forum user who knew nothing about CH, I've had my total ignorance of Horsham and life in a males-only community informed to a surprising and alarming level.

The only real way that information moves on Facebook is the addition of friends and how many people you can turn into a virtual vampire. To me, ultimately vacuous.

Rather terrific that you can create your image, add and subtract to present yourself to the world as you wish though. I suppose that it's accepted by "friends" that each personal representation is tweaked and groomed according to the wish for individual self-presentation? (But - I do this every day with clothes and makeup!) An infinitely adaptable virtual CV! How interesting.

Part 2 of Ash's interweb rant, same time, next week....

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain all this. (Imagine a huge cross plain techno-ignorant middle-aged woman with hair dyed a strange colour and in need of assertive electrolysis)

Angela

[englishangel]

I found Ash's answer very interesting. I have been using computers longer than Philip but at first as word processors (anyone remember Locoscript and Amstrad computers?). I have never felt the need to push myself further into discovering more about the wide wide world of Facebook etc, I am happy in what I do at the moment.

Now that I am officially an OAP, I must take care not to atrophy!

Reading your posts and midget's I don't think there is any danger of that.

Like Philip I have been on the Internet since '96, found chatrooms addictive (drooling over the keyboard at 4am) but got too busy with other things after a while.

I am on Facebook but more as a way of keeping up with nephews and nieces than anything else, and of course my daughter when she goes away in two weeks ( . As I have said elsewhere we have a very low phone bill but the computer is red-hot.

[AndrewH]

I find that Facebook is good for keeping in touch with people that I already know, it is useful as an alternative to text messaging. I'm much quicker at typing on a computer than on a phone (I have seen people touch type messages on a phone without looking at the screen, but I don't send enough text messages to get that fast), indeed I type my text messages on a computer if I have one to hand.

I think that I remember about six or eight people on this forum from when I was at CH and then there are a few others that I have met briefly since, the rest I 'know' only by what they type here!

[midget]

So if someone says I am her friend on Facebook, does that put me on some sort of obligation to reciprocate? If so how (and indeed why?).

retires to mumble into her bread and milk.

Maggie

[kerrensimmonds]

Nice question, Maggie.
I think I know where you are coming from because I have been asked the self same question, and have still not replied! I look forward to some guidance on this Forum from those better equipped (and no doubt YOUNGER!) to answer.....

[Ajarn Philip]

I can't claim to be much younger, or indeed to have any answers (other than to 'how?' - just click and do as you're told!)

Midge, this may not be welcome news, but as a result of your post I think I may have fallen irretrievably in love with you. It was the bread and milk wot done it...

I found Facebook this afternoon. As far as getting to know someone is concerned - forget it, but in just a couple of hours (a few minutes on line, and a couple of hours later responses had arrived) I renewed a number of old friendships/acquaintances. FriendsReunited was quite something, but this certainly seems to be the next step.

Yes, yes, I know all those under 40 will tell me it's old hat, but I'm catching up. Slowly.

The 'why', Maggie, is entirely up to you!

Andrew, your post makes complete sense to me now.

[Angela Woodford]

I'm really excited - I'm somebody's official Facebook friend. Discovered this last night. And you can send a "gift" to a friend which is free the first time, and subsequently $1. The gift is a little picture - one of a choice of hundreds - everything from a strawberry to a G-string.

There's probably a picture of a bowl of bread-and-milk too Maggie if you want to wish some on a new Friend...

Well, I think it's exciting. I must learn how to present a photo - but haven't studied the technique yet. For me, difficult!

Munch

[cj]

... a traditional forum, allows the user to express their opinion and engage in a real conversation. Traditional forums allow expression of personality through ideas, rather than through more visceral means ... (Imagination is half the charm of a traditional forum) ... On a forum such as this, the obvious point is that the written word is more important, so perhaps allows keener expression. I'd say a traditional forum tends to allow relationships to develop in a more natural fashion, slowly. You tend to know people you talk to in a more intellectual fashion, rather than simply liking the look of them, or sharing their taste in music ... Old style forums certainly have more of a community feeling and definitely have far better content than social networks.

I don't know anything about Facebook/MySpace etc, but the reasons that Ash has given here as to the interest in a traditional forum are the reasons I like this one. Not many of my contemporaries from my schooldays post on here, but still I feel I 'know' many of you. I like that sense of belonging but also the disparate conversations that ensue.

[midget]

I'm with you on this, cj

Maggie

[cj]

Hooray, midget! The Devon 'massive' big it up phat stylee. Or something.