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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:38 pm
by rockfreak
postwarblue wrote:Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.
I don't understand why anyone thinks that monarchies in the western world wield any power anyway. Britain, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Spain - they're all essentially decorative, although they might have some constitutional function in an emergency; one thinks of Juan Carlos in facing down what appeared to be a falangist coup in Spain shortly after democracy was declared. Even our own parliamentary democracies are defective these days. Is anyone really in any doubt that real power is wielded by international finance and multi-nationals??

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:48 pm
by J.R.
rockfreak wrote:
postwarblue wrote:Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.
I don't understand why anyone thinks that monarchies in the western world wield any power anyway. Britain, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Spain - they're all essentially decorative, although they might have some constitutional function in an emergency; one thinks of Juan Carlos in facing down what appeared to be a falangist coup in Spain shortly after democracy was declared. Even our own parliamentary democracies are defective these days. Is anyone really in any doubt that real power is wielded by international finance and multi-nationals??

There speaks a true communist.

Monarchies DILUTE the power that others would love to have.

BURMA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA.

Need I go on ???

p.s. Maybe I should add RUSSIA now that 'Vlad the Impaler' Putin deems it right to shoot down innocent passenger planes !!

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:53 pm
by rockfreak
postwarblue wrote:Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.
I'm not quite sure why your man Eisenhower is so special. You could produce pros and cons about most American presidents. Would Eisenhower have signed the civil rights act had he been in power in the 60s? He made precious little fuss about the issue when he was in office in the 50s.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:08 am
by sejintenej
rockfreak wrote:
postwarblue wrote:Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.
I'm not quite sure why your man Eisenhower is so special. You could produce pros and cons about most American presidents. Would Eisenhower have signed the civil rights act had he been in power in the 60s? He made precious little fuss about the issue when he was in office in the 50s.
You are ignoring the controls on American presidents which have become more and more onerous since WWII. Given public opinion prior to Martin Luther King I cannot imagine that any act giving equality to minorities (coloureds especially) would have gone through the two houses and in any case the president would have been metaphorically crucified had he signed it.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:09 pm
by J.R.
sejintenej wrote:
rockfreak wrote:
postwarblue wrote:Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.
I'm not quite sure why your man Eisenhower is so special. You could produce pros and cons about most American presidents. Would Eisenhower have signed the civil rights act had he been in power in the 60s? He made precious little fuss about the issue when he was in office in the 50s.
You are ignoring the controls on American presidents which have become more and more onerous since WWII. Given public opinion prior to Martin Luther King I cannot imagine that any act giving equality to minorities (coloureds especially) would have gone through the two houses and in any case the president would have been metaphorically crucified had he signed it.

Quite so David, and look now - They have a 'coloured' president. Say what you will about him, but I don't think he's doing too bad considering the current economic and world situation.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:18 pm
by rockfreak
Yes I take your point Sejintenej. Actually, checking up on Ike on Wikipedia, I see that he was instrumental in some school desegregation in the 1950s and in ensuring black voting rights. This subject seems to have strayed somewhat from Faith Schools. Perhaps we need a new thread: Monarchies vs Republics or Cavaliers & Roundheads.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:02 pm
by rockfreak
Anyone who doubts where blind faith and dogma lead hasn't been watching the evening news for the past few days.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:45 pm
by rockfreak
Freaky gets one of his periodic letters to the Guardian today (24 Feb) under the heading "The deep religious roots of censorship". Pondering on, after recent events in France and Denmark, how far the Christian church has tolerated different types of religious imagery, after the Grauniad's art critic Jonathan Jones tried to claim that they had always been pretty relaxed about it. Not so, claimed I, after doing a bit of research.
Mind you, today's CofE is usually pretty relaxed about these things, as even Richard Dawkins admits. Indeed he says that maybe they are almost too nice for their own good! And I do find it encouraging that the bishops have come out against the evil policies of this government, predictably sparking hysteria from the right-wing papers. "Who elected the bishops?" demand the papers. Well, who elected right-wing newspaper editors and their tax exile owners, one might just as reasonably ask. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
There was a previous outburst of turbulent priests in the early '80s when Thatcher was laying waste to the northern half of the UK and messrs Shephard (have I spelt him right?) and Warlock, respectively Anglican and Catholic bishops of Liverpool, went up against her. I remember David Shephard coming to preach at CH in the '50s when he was also a Test cricketer. Who was the contact at CH who persuaded him? I do seem to remember this being mentioned somewhere.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:21 pm
by sejintenej
rockfreak wrote: I remember David Shephard coming to preach at CH in the '50s when he was also a Test cricketer. Who was the contact at CH who persuaded him? I do seem to remember this being mentioned somewhere.
David Shepherd was / is an OB

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:31 pm
by sejintenej
rockfreak wrote: "Who elected the bishops?" demand the papers. Well, who elected right-wing newspaper editors and their tax exile owners, one might just as reasonably ask. Everyone's entitled to a quote/opinion.
The converse is also true - who elected the editors of the Red Flag, the Yobserver, BEEB, I, etc? (OK the answer to the first is that famous London gentleman Josef Stalin)

Who authorised "Disgusted of Tonbridge Wells" to have his/her/its views printed not only in newspapers but hard back as well that' HARD!

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:00 pm
by anniexf
sejintenej wrote:
rockfreak wrote: I remember David Shephard coming to preach at CH in the '50s when he was also a Test cricketer. Who was the contact at CH who persuaded him? I do seem to remember this being mentioned somewhere.
David Shepherd was / is an OB
Oh really? Thought David Sheppard went to Sherborne. One learns something new every day, eh? but not necessarily facts....

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:00 pm
by rockfreak
Right Annie. I'm absolutely sure he wasn't an OB. It's easy enough to check out on Wikipedia, which I haven't actually done yet.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:40 pm
by rockfreak
Freaky's latest letter to the Guardian, 9 September, under the heading "Whether or not to disestablish the C of E". I run it out here in full because it touches on points already made in this thread. I was replying to Giles Fraser in his Guardian column "Loose Canon". It was interesting because Fraser himself has previously praised the "broad church" C of E model as being a bulwark against religious fanaticism. But now he is apparently fed up with the Anglican establishment whom he believes to be reactionary and behind the times. So I wrote:
"Should Giles Fraser be careful for what he wishes? Even Richard Dawkins has pondered on the paradox of America where a gap between church and state (insisted on by the founding fathers) has left a vacuum into which have poured a thousand Elmer Gantrys selling religion like snake oil to a gullible population and doing very well out of it. Perhaps as someone brought up in the C of E but now a mild atheist, I shouldn't be entering my dog in this race. But it seems to me that the resonant language of the King James Bible, the Book of Common Prayer, the stirring hymns and the sacred classical music are the plus points of Anglicanism. Does Fraser wish to join the scrum of evangelicals competing for market share by offering miracles, healings, speaking in tongues, fainting in the spirit of the Lord, casting out devils, singing songs that sound like entries for Eurovision and, in some sinister cases, working to break up families?"

Checking back on this site I see Dr Scuffil's comment that Cranmer's prayer book has long since been axed. But the points hold, I believe. How to avoid the marketisation of religion. Given the Thatcherite mania for the private sector it's a wonder that she didn't do it while in office, especially as she herself was a Methodist. How does the C of E revive itself especially when its old adherents like me are atheists! Annie FX recounts how her daughter has joined a vibrant local C of E congregation and is running a food bank. I wonder if much depends on the energy and organisation of the local priest.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:11 pm
by sejintenej
I know that there is all sorts of guff about the planning of Washington DC, US bank notes etc etc ad infinitum but surely the real background makes sense.

Many if not all the founding fathers of the US of A were Masons and they chose other Masons as succesors, senior state officers etc. The reason was that one couldn't be a Mason unless you were a member of a religion which beleived in your deeds being judged by a higher entity. ie you knew that if you did something wrong in this world you might get away with it here but you would be judged in the afterlife.

It doesn't matter which religion you follow; it is the threat hanging over you which keeps you on the straight and narrow. Christs Hospital should continue to fraise pupils in a religion which will mould them throughout their lives because failure would rebound on the OB, the school and the wider society.

Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:53 am
by michael scuffil
In c. 1960, CH was CofE to the core. And CofE in those days meant the BCP, Matins and Evensong, communion on an empty stomach, no vestments, and absolutely no 'enthusiasm' of the happy-clappy sort. In the meantime, the CofE, for good or ill, has changed out of recognition, to become just two sects out of many, and has lost touch with most of the Anglican communion, which is in Africa.

The 'religious' bit of the RRA Foundation comes from the fact that a bishop was embarrassed that, within a stone's throw of his cathedral, priory buildings were going to waste since the friars had been chased out (with his support). So he got the king to do something about it. But that did not make CH a 'faith' school. It didn't even have its own chapel till 1902.

I was not a Christian when I arrived at CH, nor when I left, nor at any time in between, or since. It is probably more acceptable to be a public atheist at CH now than it was then, but I doubt whether the 'official' attitude has ever influenced belief, let alone behaviour.