Plates

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Atticus
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Plates

Post by Atticus » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:35 pm

Do all children at Christ's Hospital who have a governors presentation (eg a donation governor) wear a metal plate on their coats, if not, what do they mean, and who are they given by?

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Re: Plates

Post by Foureyes » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:48 am

Question 1. "Do all children at Christ's Hospital who have a governors presentation (eg a donation governor) wear a metal plate on their coats." No. In fact donation governors are, by definition, individuals, and none of them have plates, which are worn by the presentees of corporate bodies. as below.

Question 2. "...if not, what do they mean, and who are they given by?" It is quite a complicated subject.
A. The oldest plates (aka badges) were worn (and still are) by the members of the Royal Mathematical School (RMS), founded by Charles II in 1673. It was for boys intending to enter either the Royal Navy or merchant service. This was changed in the middle of the 19th century, when the RMS became a method of presenting children (boys and girls) of Royal Navy, Royal Marines and some Merchant Navy officers. Maximum of 40 children at any one time.
B. The next plate was for the RAF Presentationers Trust founded in 1953 by Sir Barnes Wallis and the RAF Benevolent Fund. Has been up to 20 in the past, but now two at any one time.
C. There are a number of livery companies which have rights of presentation, some (but not all) of which have a plate to be worn by their presentees, including Ironmongers' Company, Cooks' Company, Drapers' Company, Grocers' Company, Fishmongers' Company, Skinners' Company, Mercers' Company, Master Mariners' Company, and some others.
D. Two presentees come from Chichester under the Oliver Whitby presentation.
E. A significant number are presented by the West Foundation. Basically, these are descendants of the West family, or domiciled in Reading or Twickenham.
C. A number are presented by the Susan Thompson Foundation.

Hope this helps.
David :shock:

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Re: Plates

Post by Katharine » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:06 am

David - did the RMS present girls before the merger? I do not remember any badge for RMS, nor for West Gift. We certainly had West Gift girls as it is credited with keeping the girls' school open as the will specific ally mentioned girls (did it give a number?).
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Re: Plates

Post by Foureyes » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:37 am

Katherine,
To the best of my knowledge, but I could be wrong (and often am), the position vis-a-vis Hertford was as follows.
1. RMS. The RMS, as founded by Charles I, aimed to train boys for entry into RN/MN; these were selected for the RMS by mathematical ability, and whether or not they were sons of naval officers was not relevant. By definition, this was not open to girls.
2. In (about) the 1850s that RMS scheme was scrapped and the present one replaced it: i.e., for the children of RN, RM and certain MN personnel (not just officers). As far as I know this included daughters. I have found no trace of Hertford RMS girls wearing any sort of distinction.
3. The West's Gift plate/badge was NOT instituted until 1993, so although there were many West's girls at Hertford, neither they nor the boys at Horsham wore such a badge prior to that date. Concerning numbers, my info (from the trust secretary) is that Wests Gift simply places as many children at the school as the fund enables them to - which is quite a lot - 71 in 1803, 72 in 2003. (I should add that I consider Wests' Gift to be a charity of almost unparalleled generosity).
4. The RAF Foundationers' Trust was founded in 1953 and from the start eligible girls wore a brooch, which was similar to the plate worn by the boys, but smaller and with the naughty bits smoothed over - if you don't believe me compare them!
5. The only other pre-1985 plate that I know of was worn by the Oliver Whitby Trust presentees from 1953 onwards (two at a time).
6. In my researches on Hertford dress the only distinctions I came across were: Monitress' badge, instituted in (about) 1915, Readers' badge (worn by both boys and girls until about 1890), the RAF brooch (from 1953), and the Black Apron.
David :shock:

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Re: Plates

Post by Mid A 15 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:50 am

My memory could be playing tricks here but I vaguely remember reading that BSB (Benevolent Society of Blues) presentees also wear a plate.

I've no idea how many of them there are.
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Re: Plates

Post by Foureyes » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:35 am

BSB. Quite right - I had overlooked them.
:shock:

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Re: Plates

Post by Katharine » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:19 pm

Foureyes wrote:6. In my researches on Hertford dress the only distinctions I came across were: Monitress' badge (both Junior Mons in Junior Houses looking like a Housey button on a tie pin and the ones worn by seniors, also School Prefects' badges, an enamel CH shield on a tie pin), instituted in (about) 1915, Readers' badge (worn by both boys and girls until about 1890), the RAF brooch (from 1953), and the Black Apron and Green Apron.
In your list you have missed a few badges - the P for Posture badge, a yellow shield with the letter P, the Form Captain's badges - I think these were purple shields with the word Captain on a diagonal. Each form below the VI form had 2 Form Captains. There were quite a few of both of these.
There were also some sporting distinctions worn, Colours were a lozenge shaped badge with the CH shield, Kerren had those, I don't think they differentiated the sport. The recipient also had the capital letter in yellow embroidery to stitch above the shield on her blazer. (when I first went there not everyone had shields on blazer, I don't know wheth they signified colours or First team then) There were two swimming badges as well, I can't quite remember what they signified, all the time I was there I think only two girls ever had them both in 8s, firstly Elizabeth Onley then Delphine Palmer.

KathArine, with an A after the H!
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Re: Plates

Post by sejintenej » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:56 pm

Atticus wrote:Do all children at Christ's Hospital who have a governors presentation (eg a donation governor) wear a metal plate on their coats, if not, what do they mean, and who are they given by?
Atticus: you have received a lot of information but I would stress that, from the pupil's point of view the method of presentation made little or no difference within the school grounds. Indeed it didn't matter whether you had been "presented" or not.
Each Governor or presenter had their own relations with each presentee - I have read stories of very close, almost familial relationships whereas in my case I only found out where my presentation came from about three years ago (I'm in my mid/late sixties!) - and the school knows that they never even had the governor's address - only the address of a third party. Ergo, it is a matter of interest but no more (IMHO)

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Re: Plates

Post by Atticus » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:36 pm

Thankyou all for a very interesting and detailed response, especially thankyou foureyes and katharine - I have found the explanation and history fascinating.

Sejintenej, thankyou also for your reply. The question came from a conversation I had with a current parent- my dd starts in September.
I am enjoying discovering the history of CH - my school, an old King Edward VI grammar did not keep any traditions, other than the founders day service.
I am not sure that my daughter is aware of the different methods of entry, but is rather overwhelmed by the whole process to date

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Re: Plates

Post by midget » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:42 pm

I remember that we had to address envelopes each term (?once a year?) for the fees demand to be sent out. There were always grumbles because the West Gift people did not have to do it, they were there free.
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Re: Plates

Post by englishangel » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:55 am

1965 - 1972 the only envelopes I remember having to write were for our school reports.
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Re: Plates

Post by Chris Blewett » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:33 pm

I remember writting envelopes for term's report at Horsham - usually after spending forever making copies of it!!!!
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Re: Plates

Post by Angela Woodford » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:17 pm

Katharine wrote: Each form below the VI form had 2 Form Captains. There were quite a few of both of these.
Only a small point - surely there was only one Form Captain per form? Elected the first Form Time of term!

Foureyes - what was this RAF Foundationers badge, that it should show "naughty bits"? Sounds a bit risqué ? :shock:
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Re: Plates

Post by sejintenej » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:50 pm

Angela Woodford wrote: Foureyes - what was this RAF Foundationers badge, that it should show "naughty bits"? Sounds a bit risqué ? :shock:
Down girl! just because they didn't teach you the difference between the birds and the bees and the cigarette trees :wink:

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Re: Plates

Post by Vièr Bliu » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:24 pm

Foureyes wrote: C. There are a number of livery companies which have rights of presentation, some (but not all) of which have a plate to be worn by their presentees, including Ironmongers' Company,
I remember the Ironmongers' plate suddenly appearing (a quick flick through along the bookshelves locates the report in The Blue for Lent Term 1983). The presentation of the first plates was made January 31 1983 - I remember the surprise of seeing boys suddenly plated up who I had never seen plated before. The lizards (salamanders, I presume) on the plate seemed a little odd (though no odder, really, than the rest).
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