Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by J.R. » Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:54 pm

Not sure where I stand these days on corporal punishment. It never did me any harm at Horsham.

However, sexual assault and rape by school staff on pupils is a completely different matter. But we won't go into the why's and wherefores of capital punishment at this stage.
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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by sejintenej » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:46 am

J.R. wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:54 pm
But we won't go into the why's and wherefores of capital punishment at this stage.
Interesting article on (not) capital punishment yesterday attributed to Sky News.
California has 742 offenders on death row and hasn't killed any since 2006.
Since 1978: 78 inmates died of natural causes, 25 killed themselves, 13 were executed in California, 2 were executed in other states,
2 were been murdered by another inmate on death row and 8 died from other causes.

? Capital punishment California style is death by boredom?
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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by jhopgood » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:57 am

sejintenej wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:46 am


? Capital punishment California style is death by boredom?
I have often wondered whether it is a worse punishment to be in prison fo the rest of your natural life, or a "quick" exit by way of execution.
The waiting for the inevitable, in either circumstance, must be "hell".
Barnes B 25 (59 - 66)

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by michael scuffil » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:31 am

Not sure where I stand these days on corporal punishment. It never did me any harm at Horsham.

No, but it corrupted those who administered it. That is the main argument against it.
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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by sejintenej » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:28 pm

jhopgood wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:57 am
sejintenej wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:46 am


? Capital punishment California style is death by boredom?
I have often wondered whether it is a worse punishment to be in prison fo the rest of your natural life, or a "quick" exit by way of execution.
The waiting for the inevitable, in either circumstance, must be "hell".
I wonder if it is too different to being incapacitated by some horrible medical complaint for the rest of your life. In either case there are those who have made a life for themselves; the birdman of Alcatraz and in the UK system there is some man who has become established in the Art world come to mind.
It is very much up to the individual - I would think of the ordinary worker who often died of boredom within a typical six months of receiving his gold watch. Things are vastly improved now with better access to information, better health advice and more possibilities of to things to do.
( I had a work colleague who was excited because his retirement would allow him more time for his birdwatching (we even gave him binoculars) but he was blind six months later!)
‘So, still happy you voted for my namesake who took away your health insurance, raised your taxes and should turn out to be a mental patient?’

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by rockfreak » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:22 pm

jhopgood wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:57 am
sejintenej wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:46 am


? Capital punishment California style is death by boredom?
I have often wondered whether it is a worse punishment to be in prison fo the rest of your natural life, or a "quick" exit by way of execution.
The waiting for the inevitable, in either circumstance, must be "hell".

I once interviewed someone who had been on Death Row. You may have heard of him, jhopgood. He was a country singer called David Allan Coe who had been on Death Row before being reprieved and later released. Perhaps rather typically in these cases he had had a difficult upbringing and spent some time in reformatories. He was in an adult jail and was cornered by an old lag who intended to rape him. He picked up a metal mop wringer and brained this guy with it. While on Death Row he was forced to confront his maker and the experience led him on release to compose some very good and powerful country music ('Would You Lay With Me In A Field Of Stone' which was covered by Tanya Tucker) but also some searing blues, to the extent that he was recognised by the British fanzine Blues Unlimited as a serious white blues singer and guitarist. I got the impression that in jail he was clinging onto any kind of life chance while it still existed, but of course in his case there were powerful mitigating circumstances. Everyone hopes until the very end I guess. The recent two-part 'Lost Manson Tapes' on British TV was interesting. I remember following this saga avidly in 1969 via Rolling Stone (which was then much more of a counter culture magazine) as it happened, and the gang were lucky to get off it seemed to me. Manson and the three girls involved were under death sentence but it was commuted.

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by J.R. » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:38 am

Manson was a real enigma. He never commited or actually took part in killings but had that strange power over people to do it for him.
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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by TMF » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:12 pm

1. If you made a video of a prepubescent boy in thin pajamas being bent over in a middle aged teacher's study and beaten with a slipper or a cane (with a run up, 'tangents', etc.) and put that video on YouTube or Facebook - you would find yourself quickly in trouble.

2. If you took some Polaroid photographs of the same scene in the 60s or 70s (say) and sent them to the News of the World - you would create a scandal. Pupils were specifically ordered not to talk with journalists to avoid such scandals.

From 1 and 2, I conclude that corporal punishment as practiced at CH is not and was not 'ok' and should not have been allowed.

3. Corporal punishment was not administered to master's children. Either master's children were especially perfect, or the corporal punishment enthusiasts knew that their hobbies should be confined to those well separated from their parents.

4. Women (e.g. matrons) generally did not administer corporal punishment. Women would instead present victims to male teachers for punishment. You might call this enabling corporal punishment.

5. The punishment books that recorded corporal punishment have (apparently) disappeared. Meanwhile council minutes about uniform supply in Elizabethan times can be easily found.

Corporal punishment of the type that existed at Christ's Hospital (private pain, shame, violation, and humiliation) should not have been allowed. It was part of a pattern or breaking pupils down (combined with bullying by other pupils) that led to vulnerable pupils being abused. From recent convictions and what one can read on this site, it would seem that this problem affected many generations of CH pupils and that it was abetted by the institution.
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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by J.R. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:35 am

Some very interesting points of view TMF and quite right in my view.

As one of the people who tried to locate the CH punishment books years ago and was unable to even establish their original existence, I also wondered at the extensive archives of CH documentation.

I think someone at the time referred to it as 'Selective Filing !!
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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by rockfreak » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:19 pm

J.R. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:35 am
Some very interesting points of view TMF and quite right in my view.

As one of the people who tried to locate the CH punishment books years ago and was unable to even establish their original existence, I also wondered at the extensive archives of CH documentation.

I think someone at the time referred to it as 'Selective Filing !!

What a pity. We shall never know what NTF wrote about his beatings.

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by J.R. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:56 pm

rockfreak wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:19 pm
J.R. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:35 am
Some very interesting points of view TMF and quite right in my view.

As one of the people who tried to locate the CH punishment books years ago and was unable to even establish their original existence, I also wondered at the extensive archives of CH documentation.

I think someone at the time referred to it as 'Selective Filing !!

What a pity. We shall never know what NTF wrote about his beatings.
As NTF did what he thought fit, I can assure you I deserved the one beating administered by him.

OKAY ? (RA) Hewitt delivered the other. What ever did happen to Hewitt ? aka Mr Halitosis.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by DazedandConfused » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:26 pm

J.R. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:56 pm
rockfreak wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:19 pm
J.R. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:35 am
Some very interesting points of view TMF and quite right in my view.

As one of the people who tried to locate the CH punishment books years ago and was unable to even establish their original existence, I also wondered at the extensive archives of CH documentation.

I think someone at the time referred to it as 'Selective Filing !!

What a pity. We shall never know what NTF wrote about his beatings.
As NTF did what he thought fit, I can assure you I deserved the one beating administered by him.

OKAY ? (RA) Hewitt delivered the other. What ever did happen to Hewitt ? aka Mr Halitosis.
Dr Hewitt taught Physics in the 90s- probably not the same one though?

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by Foureyes » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:02 pm

JR wrote: "...As one of the people who tried to locate the CH punishment books years ago and was unable to even establish their original existence, I also wondered at the extensive archives of CH documentation...."

I think that I may be able to help here. In the 1990s and early 2000s I did a lot of research into the Housie WW1 Roll of Honour. To help with this work I wanted to access the papers of the committee set up in 1919-20 to devise the original roll. This proved to be impossible as I was assured by Tony Hogarth-Smith (then an admin officer in the Counting House) that he majority of CH's old paper records were in a squash court and simply piled high in a haphazard order. Not only could I not access the papers, but I was prevented from even seeing them. I did speak to someone who had seen them, who told me that the place was an absolute shambles.

So, JR, I would not be surprised that the punishment books could not be found 'years ago'. However, I believe that within the past few years the situation has been resolved and the papers sorted, mainly by herculean efforts by the Museum volunteers, so it might be a good idea to write to the Clerk to try again, although he might turn you down on current legal grounds!

David :shock:

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by robert totterdell » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:56 pm

Corporal punishment was a part of the '50s, 60s, and 70s. It was a norm and as Guy Perricone has explained to me was at that time an acceptable form of chastisement.

However, I was at CH under Seaman and Newsome and the corporal punishment delivered had very little to do with 'chastisement'.

Whilst masters performing sexual abuse against little children was permitted, minor misdemeanors were punished severely and I and others will state clearly it was for 'SEXUAL GRATIFICATION'.

Newsome was very special in his 'chastisement'. Lots of different canes and taking a long time to deliver the punishment.

Mind you the great MBE Robert (Bob) Sillett who provided evidence (as Housemaster) in the cases of Karim (as well as being involved with Dobbie and Husband) where he had to explain why he tried to cover up sexual abuse, himself had a reputation on corporal punishment. He created the Tangent method and was very proud of it. That is where you bring the cane down on the top of the buttocks and not the base.

Corporal punishment at CH was a form of sexual gratification and had very little to do with chastisement. It was a prime source of aggressive sexual satisfaction and it is directly linked to the culture of sexual abuse that occurred and the issues with the school not just in my time but for some 32 years and which I am now able to confirm, occurred for at least 40 years and continued to 2014.

If you think the two issues of Corporal Punishment and Sexual Abuse are different then think again.

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Re: Corporal Punishment by CH Teaching staff

Post by J.R. » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:43 am

DazedandConfused wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:26 pm
J.R. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:56 pm
rockfreak wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:19 pm



What a pity. We shall never know what NTF wrote about his beatings.
As NTF did what he thought fit, I can assure you I deserved the one beating administered by him.

OKAY ? (RA) Hewitt delivered the other. What ever did happen to Hewitt ? aka Mr Halitosis.
Dr Hewitt taught Physics in the 90s- probably not the same one though?
Definitely not the same 'Hewitt'.

R. Hewitt's subject was English, both Lit. and Lang. I believed he played rugby for The Harlequins. As far as I'm aware, he wasn't at CH for any great length of time
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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