SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

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Foureyes
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SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by Foureyes » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:43 am

I was interested to see that C.H. recently held a ceremony where leaving Grecians were presented with specially-produced glass thingies which bear a repeat of the leaving instruction to support the school throughout one's life. Quite apart from the unnecessary expense and duplication of the Bible, I am intesested that it was confined to Grecians.
It has often struck me that C.H. concentrates far too much on Grecians, giving them special houses and all sorts of other priviledges, leaving the others who leave as Deps (or lower?) feeling that they are very much second-class citizens. The number of Grecians has expanded, but even so there must be many who never achieved that grade. So, I wonder how many do not become Grecians and at what stage they then have to leave? I also wonder how many, if any, Full-Fee Payers fail to become Grecians, thus depriving the school of at least one year's worth of full fees???

Perhaps, the hidden message is that those who don't become Grecians are not expected to contribute to the school funds in later years?
:shock:

sejintenej
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by sejintenej » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:21 pm

Whether one likes it or not, the moving of grecians into their own houses seems to be a take-off of the external practice of having 6th forms separate (even different colleges) from the lower forms in a school.
There is also the question of what, in these days, deps and grecians are aiming at. In the 1950's deps and grecians weere working towards A levels with just a few, having done A level, working towards the old S level. In Col A at least there was no distinguishing betwen the two - we accepted that each doing their best at acheiving their aims. Indeed, with the odd exception, I didn't know what level others were studying.

Therefore I feel that, if there must be one, the split seems to be at the wrong level - it should be a break between those studying for GCSE and those working at higher levels. On the other hand, seeing the older boys working was an example for the younger pupils and contributed to the discipline which enabled the school to acheive the standards which it did.

As for Foureyes' final rejoinder, I suspect it was tongue in cheek. Just look at some of those who have had spectacular acheivements, made oodles of filthy lucre, but flunked out educationally. Those more likely to support the school are likely to be those who were supported in the school environment rather than those who were cast to the wolves whilst at CH
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LongGone
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by LongGone » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:55 pm

In my day the real distinction was whether you were a Buttoned Grecian or not. Several have suggested that Buttons implies you were expected to get into Oxbridge with a scholarship but I don't know if that was ever explicitly stated. Certainly S levels by themselves were not sufficient if you were going to a (gasp!) redbrick.
Last edited by LongGone on Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Foureyes
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by Foureyes » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:55 am

"As for Foureyes' final rejoinder, I suspect it was tongue in cheek."
Quite the reverse, and I do not disagree that many of those who fail to achieve distinction at school go on to spectacular success in later life, just as there are former Grecians who join life's failures.
What I was seeking to highlight was the school's (Foundation's?) decision to limit these glass thingies to Grecians and not to give them to those who leave without such a disitinction. What was the rationale behind that?
:shock:

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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by Katharine » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:12 am

Very interesting question, David.

The school has changed since many us were there, it has become far, far more academic. Such a gift just rubs it in that some are more equal than others. I'm not sure it is a good thing, does it reward effort? I know I have taught many a child who has not been an academic high flyer but has worked hard and been worthy of recognition and more importantly encouragement.

I have yet to be convinced this new gift (was it a one-off?) is a "Good Thing"
Katharine Dobson (Hills) 6.14, 1959 - 1965
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by seajayuu » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:21 pm

Don't forget that being a grecian simply means that a student is in Year 13 - the second year of Alevel/IB study. Similarly deps is Year 12. In general, students who embark on A level/IB in year 12 will continue into year 13. People choose to leave CH at all points of a conventional school career for all sorts of different reasons. Relatively few would choose to leave mid-GCSE or mid-A level, as is the case in any school.

sejintenej
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by sejintenej » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:19 pm

seajayuu wrote:Don't forget that being a grecian simply means that a student is in Year 13 - the second year of Alevel/IB study. Similarly deps is Year 12. .
Exactly, Chrissie. No different really to pupils outside the private sector.
We seem to have several sub-threads in this thread.
1. Grecians being separated from the (not so) hoi polloi
2. Grecians being given a "glass thingy" which others don't get (allegedly).
3 CH becoming "more academic"

I have already commented on the question of separating grecians out.

The glass thingy is simply a pretty written version of the charge and is (presumably) in addition to the traditional Bible (do Muslim pupils get a Koran?) How many OBs have even looked at their Bibles (or equivalent) in the past decade? Is a "glass thingy" treated better? Is it really a worthwhile reminder? The question of the foundation spending money is a valid one about which each OB must make up his or her own mind.

I argue against the "more" in more academic though I an considering only the 1950's and start of the 1960's and at Horsham. At that time one either went into the deputy grecians (for A level and beyond) or into the 5th form to ensure that the pupil obtained the requisite 5 'O' levels which were the entry to decent jobs (equivalent now to a BA or BSc in the eyes of employers).
Being dyslexic (which CH never picked up on) I did a year in the 5th form, got my dozen O levels and then switched to deputy grecians and did A levels. The 5th form, (whilst I was in it) was really tiny showing that the vast majority went straight to studying for A levels. Apart from the very rare expulsion I don't know of pupils leaving before the 5th form/Deps split. .
Katharine was at Hertford about which I cannot comment. At Horsham we did do non-academic subjects at lower lavels - woodwork, forge, etc but I think the only exam subject was Technical Drawing. Yes, we had to do Art or handicrafts to fill in a couple of periods whilst we slaved away at A levels but we took those as being a way of unwinding from the almost unending slog. (CH didn't even have lessons in Rugby which my honorary neice had at school before turning professional!!!!!) I certainly don't think Horsham had the scope to become much more academic.
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by Katharine » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:54 pm

David, when Chrissie and I were at Hertford there was a definite B stream of less academic girls. In our year, which was THE post war bulge year we had three streams A1, A2 and B this was the only year so divided in the time I was there.
Some of the girls in the B stream left after O levels, some did a one year year course in the VI form, usually pre-nursing. Some in the B stream did not take O level Maths, instead took an exam in Arithmetic, most did Cookery and Needlework as two separate O levels. I don't think there is any place in modern day CH for these less academic pupils. From the sounds of it, there might not have been at Horsham either.
We had six senior houses, and most years there were about 6-8 in each house at the start. It was not unusual for there to be just 2 or 3 left in the A level year. I think this shows a fair attrition of the less academic - of course there were a few who left for other reasons but the majority of those who left before A levels were because they were thought not to be capable of taking A levels.
Katharine Dobson (Hills) 6.14, 1959 - 1965
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seajayuu
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by seajayuu » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:59 pm

There is one major difference between Grecians and our UVI days, which may partially account for Grecians houses:- youngsters are legally "of age" at 18 rather than 21 as it was for us. There may therefore be an expectation of a more "adult" way of life?
There may also be financial and logistical reasons for filling the places of premature leavers by taking new deps.
I have to say that the standard of accomodation and the overall atmosphere in the grecians house that I am familiar with are both impressive.

Katharine
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by Katharine » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:12 pm

seajayuu wrote:There is one major difference between Grecians and our UVI days, which may partially account for Grecians houses:- youngsters are legally "of age" at 18 rather than 21 as it was for us. There may therefore be an expectation of a more "adult" way of life?
There may also be financial and logistical reasons for filling the places of premature leavers by taking new deps.
I have to say that the standard of accomodation and the overall atmosphere in the grecians house that I am familiar with are both impressive.
There's a lot of truth in what you say, Chrissy, both the coming of age and the financial reasons for taking in new deeps.

How many new Deps do enter each year?
Katharine Dobson (Hills) 6.14, 1959 - 1965
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Foureyes
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by Foureyes » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:44 am

"Premature leavers" What a super phrase!
That brings me back to my original question, which is how many leave without having beclome a Grecian and at what age?
If I remember rightly (but I might be mistaken becuae it was a long time ago!) the arrangement in the late 40s/early 50s was that all remained until they took their O Levels. Then, if they failed to get enough 'Os' - or were deemed ot1herwise unable to sit 'As' - they left, which would have been about age 16. The school's argument, as I recall, was that they had provided you with some 4-5 year's of free education and that they could do no more. Hard - but just.
So, what's the score today?
David

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J.R.
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by J.R. » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:34 pm

Foureyes wrote:"Premature leavers" What a super phrase!
That brings me back to my original question, which is how many leave without having beclome a Grecian and at what age?
If I remember rightly (but I might be mistaken becuae it was a long time ago!) the arrangement in the late 40s/early 50s was that all remained until they took their O Levels. Then, if they failed to get enough 'Os' - or were deemed ot1herwise unable to sit 'As' - they left, which would have been about age 16. The school's argument, as I recall, was that they had provided you with some 4-5 year's of free education and that they could do no more. Hard - but just.
So, what's the score today?
David

I tend to agree, Foureyes.

I have never excelled at exams, and Knew beforE I had finisheD 'O's, I was out of there, no matter what.

I had an interview during the 1963 summer break with what was then, The Surrey Constabulary and was immediately accepted, and, as they say, 'stuck my notice in'. I honestly didn't fancy doing exam re-takes.

Having said that, the School taught me a lot, maybe not academically, but definitely socially.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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postwarblue
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by postwarblue » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:19 pm

[img]http://s211.photobucket.com/user/postwa ... sort=1&o=0[/img]

The rules from the back of one of my 1950s school reports.
'Oh blest retirement, friend to life's decline'

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postwarblue
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by postwarblue » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:23 pm

That wasn't much good, was it? I carefully obeyed the rues in the photo thread, uploaded to photobucket (a chore), copied the url into the img brackets and BINGO! failure. Can't find a delete thread button so that's it.

If you want to look, swipe the bracketed url and paste it into your browser. If that doesn't work, tuf.
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sejintenej
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Re: SOME LESS EQUAL THAN OTHERS

Post by sejintenej » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:43 am

Thanks for that, Robert. Since it is dated whilst I was at CH two rules are interesting:

Rule V - in taking me into a café to enjoy cakes my mother routinely broke this rule!!!!!

Rule IV; the first part was applied; in the one case where I was involved the family friend was a male doctor of medicine who tried what just one boy had tried with me (use your dirty imagination!)
I don't think that the second part (going out with family or friends of other boys) was so laxly applied.

I have to wonder how, given these rules, the school got round the Army taking us to Tangmere to work with Civil Defence or allowing us to be collected by the Fire Brigade to train in their tunnels.
It is hard to make a comeback when you haven’t been anywhere.

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