Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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Avon
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by Avon »

Good posts above but may I suggest that this forum is the richer for having @Golfer in it?
Elvie
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by Elvie »

Yes it is, he could easily have said nothing, just like the others
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J.R.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by J.R. »

Well, as the oldest Moderator on this site, I have been following this thread with interest and wasn't going to comment. I see Tim said he was leaving here for good. That's his perogative, BUT, I am going to make things crystal from the start.

On arrival at the Court, Richard and I introduced ourself to the Judges Clerk, informing her of our interest in the case and to ask if the Judge had any objections to us taking notes as the press do. The legal implications were pointed out to us regarding naming people etc, which we obviously already knew.

During the first part of the hearing, during submissions, names were stated along with other facts which could be considered inflamatory to witnesses if published. We were 'reminded' again by the Clerk during a short recess about our earlier conversation.

So, there you have it Tim. As Richard said earlier. all will be revealed in the fullness of time. I won't go into the 'It Ain't All Over Til The Fat......' etc. etc. There is still a lot more to come. Two more sentencings, the possibility of more charges, the possibility of appeals.

In some ways, I admire your sense of protection for the school, but I have to say that in my view it is mis-guided.

Q.E.D.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by sejintenej »

JR. I am slightly surprised at the warnings given to you by the Clerk to the Court. My understanding is that what is said is, with exceptions, public knowledge and if required a transcript should be available. The exceptions include if a witness is not named, information which could lead to their naming, breaches of the Official Secrets Act and if. perchance, a judge discloses something previously said in camera.

That said it is not a good idea to go against the advice of the Clerk.

I used to enjoy reading cases heard under the supervision of L J Scrutton who could be quite a wit and would come up with interesting asides about the law.
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J.R.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by J.R. »

sejintenej wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:40 pm JR. I am slightly surprised at the warnings given to you by the Clerk to the Court. My understanding is that what is said is, with exceptions, public knowledge and if required a transcript should be available. The exceptions include if a witness is not named, information which could lead to their naming, breaches of the Official Secrets Act and if. perchance, a judge discloses something previously said in camera.

That said it is not a good idea to go against the advice of the Clerk.

I used to enjoy reading cases heard under the supervision of L J Scrutton who could be quite a wit and would come up with interesting asides about the law.
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It certainly wasn't a warning David, as you put it. Just a case of her ensuring that we knew the law, bearing in mind, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by richardb »

Justice is normally open to public scrutiny.

As with everything, there are exceptions. Section 4 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 enables a court to make an Order delaying publication of what takes place in order to avoid prejudicing future proceedings - this is what all five of our offenders unsuccessfully tried to do last October. Section. 11 of the same Act allows the court to give witnesses anonymity - eg victims of blackmail who might not otherwise come forward for fear of the ensuing ridicule.

Victims of sexual offences have lifelong anonymity unless they choose to waive it. That has been the case for many years which is what makes the veiled threat by Sillett to one of Karim's victims that she could find herself in the papers SO shocking. I am afraid it was tantamount to bullying which typifies the school's approach for many many years.

Usually these Orders are on an A4 notice pinned on the court door. Journalists will of course be taught to look out for them.

JR and I played it completely straight. I am aware that observers in the public gallery should not make notes without the judge's permission, so we asked. We explained that we are OBs and wanted to pass on the proceedings to other pupils. I did explain what I do for a living.

It was with no little mirth that the Clerk discharged her duty to warn us of restrictions on publication.

The prohibition is on publication of information which may lead to the identification. So naming parents, siblings, spouses, partners, children could all lead to that happening, which is why it is safe to rehearse what staff said in evidence but unwise not to identify any pupils involved.
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J.R.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by J.R. »

.......... and I thought the Clerk was extremely nice, and will leave it at that for fear of posters starting to wag fingers !!!! :roll:
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by DeletedAccount »

Some really important and strong points have been made in this thread. And there has also been some disagreement and frustration voiced too.

I wonder whether two different but important issues are being conflated.

1 - management knowledge/response at the time - did management know and how did they respond. Various opinions on this issue have been put forward. It has been strongly suggested based, for example, on the summaries given at the Husband sentencing, that there is further information on this perhaps that will be disclosed in due course, and from other cases, there is less doubt that management did know, and did not respond effectively.

2 - management's recent response - No one doubts the current management's shock, disgust and horror at what took place nor their commitment to ensure that such vile abuse is repeated. These have both been stated clearly and repeatedly. However, I think that some have felt that at the same time, there has been only a limited acknowledgement of past failings. Yes, acknowledging that the school is now "a very different place" goes someway in that direction. I am struck by the difference in language used by other organizations/institutions following recent sexual abuse and exploitation scandals in the aid sector. For example, Oxfam's statement is clear on this issue: https://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/reac ... rkers-chad:
"Oxfam’s investigation of the Haiti case resulted in the creation of a dedicated Safeguarding Team, a confidential whistleblowing line and more comprehensive policies. These measures help Oxfam better protect people from abuse, sexual harassment and exploitation, and prevent it from happening in the first place. Our response in 2011 clearly did not meet the standards that we have today and we are working hard on corroborating the information from Chad. While we have since made many changes, it is clear we still have not done enough to change our own culture and to create the strongest possible policies to protect people we work with globally. We are doing that now. But we must do much more and act with greater urgency."(my emphasis)


Is this perhaps one of the issues that is driving people's frustrations?

It is clear that innocent children were not protected and that awful abuse took place. Of that there is no doubt. The school's management, is, in the final instance, accountable for this failure. That should be acknowledged. Now, why and how this failure occurred, and whether people were directly involved in "blocking" the process are other issues. But the first one - senior management's ultimate accontability, appears to me to be without doubt.

Personally, I think questions regarding the responses of individuals who were informed, if that was the case, are much clearer in terms of rights and wrongs.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by CodFlabAndMuck »

Golfer wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:02 pm
yamaha wrote: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:31 pm Golfer:
Waiting is a sound suggestion but in the meantime perhaps you should refrain from the Befehl ist Befehl defense you mounted the other day for the assistant chaplain and the corporate style "management knowledge" try-on which insults the victims and irritates those of us who sympathize with them for the ordeals they have suffered.
An interesting characterisation but not what I said. More likely is that she was told not to reveal anything as what she was being told was in confidence (modern training requires teachers to say that this is not possible).
One interpretation has been that there was a hierarchy - church and school - that she couldn't break.
More likely is that she thought that breaking such a confidence would destroy her reputation as a confidante within the school community.
The victim said on here that she reported the abuse to a member of the chaplaincy , she has been named I believe, and that nothing was done. That would imply that it was not in confidence and she expected action which concurs with her returning to the school at a later date to make another report to the "Safeguarding team"
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by richardb »

Sadly Gofer chose to leave the forum without really explaining what he meant.
CodFlabAndMuck
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by CodFlabAndMuck »

A decent man, I hope he returns.
It must be tough knowing that your Head of Department for nearly 13 years was up to this and you didnt know and therefore didnt do anything.
Scazza
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by Scazza »

I think Tim might have been tutor in Peele A for some years whilst Neil Fleming was tutor in Peele B, so it might have been criticism of Fleming that rattled his cage. Tim probably feels almost as let down as we do tbh.

Fleming taught classical civs in the library of Peele b as it was next to his (and Marlenes!) flat. Every lesson he was really late and every time he strolled in to a bully from LH sat on top of me, bashing me (i guess Julian knew the boy well). The Flemings never gave a damn. 'Boys will be boys'. 'Rough and tumble'. Think even I believed that in the end. Just part of life at CH.

I can easily imagine the far more serious sexual allegations being downplayed or ignored in a similar way. Even when I phoned the school recently after the Karim trial, the victims were referred to as 'young women' when they were clearly 'children'.

Anyway, back then I adored classics but it became something I dreaded and i think it shows how CH shot themselves in the foot - failing to tackle abuses has had a negative impact on OBs education and life prospects, their own apparent yardstick. The school made me see life through the lens of Goldings Lord of the Flies which we studied for GCSE English. Probably a valid world view but not healthy!
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by CodFlabAndMuck »

In those days nasty behaviour was normalised.
I hope the arrival of the girls has made it a kinder place and such behaviour is no longer accepted.
In my day if someone was down, you kicked them.
It was not a place for the weak and vulnerable.
I remember Fleming masqueraded as a photographer and use to take the Band photo and charge a fortune.
They were usually out of focus and the Band Master David Elliot who was a legend and has never since been matched would comment they were lousy and expensive
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by DazedandConfused »

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 pm In those days nasty behaviour was normalised.
I hope the arrival of the girls has made it a kinder place and such behaviour is no longer accepted.
I fear not, or at least not in the early 90s. Teenage girls can be particularly vile to each other and the bullying was both physical and verbal.

Perhaps the boys became less violent, although I remember on my 2nd form a very sweet young boy in my year being beaten so badly by 3rd formers and LE that his entire face was swollen and shades of purple for weeks. Everybody knew who did it and no action was taken. I remember his stutter becoming much more pronounced after that.
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Re: Management knowledge of the Husband/Dobbie cases

Post by scrub »

Scazza wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:55 pmThe school made me see life through the lens of Goldings Lord of the Flies ...
I've mentioned/referred to LotF many times when answering the standard "what was boarding school like?" question over the years. I cut back on using it as an example when an ex was quite shaken by my using it to describe the darker side of the place.

Don't think becoming co-ed, in and of itself, had much of effect in trying to make CH a 'nicer' place. Bullying was still very common when I was there although it did seem to get ever so slightly less worse by the time I left. Or maybe I just became immune to seeing it/wasn't as personally affected by it as I got older. Some staff were trying to reduce it but they still had the old and well established 'boys will be boys' trope to go against.
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