Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

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graham
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by graham »

A consistent, national grading scheme that is a true indicator of knowledge and ability can never be accomplished. Here in the States, we have a series of standardized tests that are used as guides for entry into University at undergraduate and graduate levels, as well as medical, law, and business schools (all post-grad here) among others. The problem - standardized tests are good predictors of socio-economic status but not academic ability. It's straightforward to get good scores on these tests if you take a prep course that teaches you how to chose the right answer but most can't afford these. We're trying move away from them at my institution now, at least at graduate level.

What I will say is that I am perplexed by the UK undergrad admissions process. I found my UCAS letters while rummaging though my Mom's loft on my last visit to the UK and it's bizarre to recall that I could only apply to 6 universities and had to pick two offers before getting my grades and junk the rest. Perhaps the process would become more selective if the applicants made choices post-grades, but the whole thing seems very antiquated to me and not helpful to students in general.

Not as antiquated as taking only 3 A-levels, mind you. It makes me mad that we were forced to specialize at such a young age. I was encouraged not to take A-level mathematics, advice I duly took, because I only got a B at GCSE. This was absolutely the worst advice I could have been offered and it made my academic trajectory much more challenging. I understand that the slow and broad approach taken here in the US is looked down on a bit in the UK, but I've got to say, having experienced both, that the system here keeps students options open for much, much longer. That's especially important for first generation University attending students who have less understanding of what they might need to do to get where they want to go.

* rant over
Graham Slater
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Oliver
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by Oliver »

rockfreak wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:34 pm Is there anywhere else in developed Europe where all this entry gymnastics cobblers exists? People seem to deal with secondary and tertiary education and get their uni places in a reasonably straightforward manner. And do they do any worse than us as a country? Perhaps someone with personal knowledge of western Europe will say I'm wrong.
Western Europe’s methods for university entry are not uniform. French universities (where I taught medicine for a couple years some decades ago) have another system, which is allegedly more democratic, but can waste time.

In essence anyone with the appropriate “Bac” (high school leaving certificate) can apply to any university to study any subject and is accepted. This naturally means that the most sought after courses (medicine, law, etc) are vastly oversubscribed in the first year. These, unlike the USA but like the UK, are undergraduate degrees usually started after leaving high school. In my French university about 400-500 students studied the first year medical course. (This large number causes problems; eg practical lab work is minimal, since it is too costly for all to do many practicals. So the first year course is highly theoretical and at a more advanced level than in the UK.) About 150 graduating doctors were required from each year’s intake, hence the solution was simple (and democratic?). Only the top 20-30% of those who sat the first year examination could continue in medicine. Few other exams have such a high failure rate. Medical students were allowed to take the first year examination only twice and two failures meant that one could no longer study medicine. Most of those who then had to change courses opted for a science degree and were given credit for their first year medical studies if their marks were of an appropriate level. Of course there are other disadvantages in addition to those mentioned. As in Eastern Asia, where there is a large industry of optional private tuition for those in high school and undergoing undergraduate courses, the French first year medical students, who can afford such courses may get an advantage over poorer students. But the authorities are well aware of this and the examination questions are intended to reduce this potential advantage.

I understand all this is unique to France and those nations using the French educational system – usually their former colonies. It arose in effect from the Napoleonic era (the French legal system is today based on the Code Napoleon) when Napoleon democratised very many aspects of French social and civil secular life, even though he later succumbed to gross nepotism and some other bad practices. But is this French system an improvement on ours?
scrub
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by scrub »

graham wrote: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:37 pmIt makes me mad that we were forced to specialize at such a young age.
Agreed, although at the time I didn't think much of it and it wasn't till I migrated to Australia and went to uni that I properly noticed it. A large chunk of my 1st year was spent rehashing A-level knowledge so I just fell into cruise control until exam time.

The Aus system is flexible enough that if you don't study something at high school you can still do it during your undergrad if you pass the bridging courses. It's not easy and not many people do it, but the option is there (or was when I went through). If you want to go into postgrad study, you don't need to start really specialising till the end of undergrad. Obviously, common sense should be applied here, you can't really expect to start a PhD in quantum mechanics straight after undergrad if your major is comparative theology. You'll need to find an extremely sympathetic supervisor and do a lot of qualifying work.

Giving up/almost failing English (by CH's standards) after GCSE left a noticeable hole in my education that I've worked hard to try and fill. A broader secondary education probably would have helped, or at least made the hole a little shallower.
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Comenius
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by Comenius »

jtaylor » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:47 pm

Out of those successes, 40% are going to prestigious universities including Bristol, Cambridge, Durham, Edinburgh, Imperial College, KCL, LSE, Oxford, and UCL.
I wonder whose definition of “prestigious” they’re using, and how those who’ve got places at the other Uni’s feel?!


Whose definition of 'prestigious'? How about the THES - the gold standard of world university rankings? All of these universities get into the top 100 universities in the world. CH doesn't even get into the top 100 independent schools in England!
loringa
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by loringa »

Comenius wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:38 am jtaylor » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:47 pm

Out of those successes, 40% are going to prestigious universities including Bristol, Cambridge, Durham, Edinburgh, Imperial College, KCL, LSE, Oxford, and UCL.
I wonder whose definition of “prestigious” they’re using, and how those who’ve got places at the other Uni’s feel?!


Whose definition of 'prestigious'? How about the THES - the gold standard of world university rankings? All of these universities get into the top 100 universities in the world. CH doesn't even get into the top 100 independent schools in England!
Based on your pseudonym I surmise that you are something of an expert on the subject, however, I suspect that one reason Christ's Hospital is not in the top 100 could simply be down to the examinations that the pupils sit. I know the rankings exclude schools where pupils sit IGCSEs rather than conventional GCSEs but I don't know whether this, or something similar, applies to CH. Presumably someone, a staff member perhaps if they still visit the forum, can clarify this?
sejintenej
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by sejintenej »

For some reason I have just found (?) this thread. I do remember replying to Oliver about the French system. France splits pupils at an early age into what I imagine to be the old fashioned UK system - trade and theoretical (I can't think of the correct word). The Bac can be taken in conventional subjects but afterwards many go to trade schools where they do the equivalent of a five year apprenticeship - even waiters etc!. Medicine is within the more conventional side. As in the US medicine and law are prestiege careers but why train and quality 800 doctors when the system only needs 200?
(My quasi neice has just passed her Bac but her sister opted for a course which is only taught in two schools throughout France - she did very well indeed captaining "les Bleus")

Scrub para 2. My younger son left his first Uni course because he couldn't take it; it was only then that tests showed he is dyslexic. The second uni put all starters into a one year course bringing them up to normal entry standards so if they had missed a subject that was remedied. He got his degree and is doing well.

Richard West; I suspect that within the UK prestigious may refer to those unis which have a high proportion of Firsts. There are those which almost never award Firsts which suggests that the standards demanded are not as high. Incidentally I am sorry you do not include UMIST where my elder son got all three degree levels and 8 companies asked us why he did not choose to work for them!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
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Comenius
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by Comenius »

Incidentally I am sorry you do not include UMIST where my elder son got all three degree levels and 8 companies asked us why he did not choose to work for them!

Yes, UMIST had a fine academic reputation but it has not existed as a separate institution since 2004, when it amalgamated with the University of Manchester - another THES top 100 university not mentioned in the original message.
AMP
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Re: Congratulations to this year's Grecians and their new Headmaster

Post by AMP »

sejintenej wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:32 pm For some reason I have just found (?) this thread. I do remember replying to Oliver about the French system. France splits pupils at an early age into what I imagine to be the old fashioned UK system - trade and theoretical (I can't think of the correct word). The Bac can be taken in conventional subjects but afterwards many go to trade schools where they do the equivalent of a five year apprenticeship - even waiters etc!. Medicine is within the more conventional side. As in the US medicine and law are prestiege careers but why train and quality 800 doctors when the system only needs 200?
(My quasi neice has just passed her Bac but her sister opted for a course which is only taught in two schools throughout France - she did very well indeed captaining "les Bleus")

Scrub para 2. My younger son left his first Uni course because he couldn't take it; it was only then that tests showed he is dyslexic. The second uni put all starters into a one year course bringing them up to normal entry standards so if they had missed a subject that was remedied. He got his degree and is doing well.

Richard West; I suspect that within the UK prestigious may refer to those unis which have a high proportion of Firsts. There are those which almost never award Firsts which suggests that the standards demanded are not as high. Incidentally I am sorry you do not include UMIST where my elder son got all three degree levels and 8 companies asked us why he did not choose to work for them!
Vocational?
The french higher educational system is quite complicated and as you say is divided into specialisms.
I am generalising, but the private sector instiutions such as the Ecoles Superieures with Grande Ecole designation are normally more prestigious and award a diplome.
There are of course the Medical Schools which are in the public sector.
Anyone who has the Bac has the right to a place at their local university which awards a license.
I graduated from an Ecole Superieure which wasn't a Grande Ecole and the local university specialised in Law. A massive amphitheatre for the 1800 first year students of whom less than 200 made it through to year 2.
In those days we did the weeding out after A levels. The french did it at the end of the first year of university.
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