The Old Blue 2018

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, but that's still CH related.

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sejintenej
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by sejintenej » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:16 pm

J.R. wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm so glad I started this thread. The above threads echo my original thoughts.
I do however, get annoyed at the constant use of the word 'Diversity'. .
Me too. Just accept that the Huddersfield 20 were practicing diversity. The concept is a foreign invention not suited to these green and pleasant isles. The proponents seem to, want concrete and hate filled isles. They have even banned the National Anthem in some circumstances and as for flying the Union Jack - you won't get council permission
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by DeletedAccount » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:10 am

sejintenej wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:16 pm
J.R. wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm so glad I started this thread. The above threads echo my original thoughts.
I do however, get annoyed at the constant use of the word 'Diversity'. .
Me too. Just accept that the Huddersfield 20 were practicing diversity. The concept is a foreign invention not suited to these green and pleasant isles. The proponents seem to, want concrete and hate filled isles. They have even banned the National Anthem in some circumstances and as for flying the Union Jack - you won't get council permission
Hello David

Am always happy to respect other people's views, however much they may differ from mine. But similarly, I always believe that we should challenge and question views that we find offensive.

So in that spirit, I would like you to know that I find your comment unpleasantly racist. It has been troubling me since I read it yesterday evening. You may argue that it is not racist. Or you may acknowledge that it is racist and defend that view. In either case I would disagree, and in both cases I would wish that you had not posted this on the forum.

I really don't want to start an argument, or even a long discussion about the tropes you have referenced. But I do want you to know how I feel about your comment.

Cheerio

Dick
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by CodFlabAndMuck » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

DickT_PeB wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:10 am
sejintenej wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:16 pm
J.R. wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm so glad I started this thread. The above threads echo my original thoughts.
I do however, get annoyed at the constant use of the word 'Diversity'. .
Me too. Just accept that the Huddersfield 20 were practicing diversity. The concept is a foreign invention not suited to these green and pleasant isles. The proponents seem to, want concrete and hate filled isles. They have even banned the National Anthem in some circumstances and as for flying the Union Jack - you won't get council permission
Hello David

Am always happy to respect other people's views, however much they may differ from mine. But similarly, I always believe that we should challenge and question views that we find offensive.

So in that spirit, I would like you to know that I find your comment unpleasantly racist. It has been troubling me since I read it yesterday evening. You may argue that it is not racist. Or you may acknowledge that it is racist and defend that view. In either case I would disagree, and in both cases I would wish that you had not posted this on the forum.

I really don't want to start an argument, or even a long discussion about the tropes you have referenced. But I do want you to know how I feel about your comment.

Cheerio

Dick
It's a shame when anybody has the courage and honesty to express what they really feel, they are immediately accused of racism.

Whilst I would not have used the same analogy , I agree with the thrust of the argument that we are being forced to embrace diversity rather than tolerate it.

The country is too PC - not my words, but the words of a maltese banker I had dinner with in Valetta about three years ago.

I live in England because I like the way of life and our culture. If I want to embrace another culture I will go and spend time there.

I have worked in France, speak the language, studied in french, and one of my degrees is from a french university, and I'm very glad to see the tricolor flown from every town hall. My local council will not allow the St George to be displayed in pubs on St George's day, but the flying of other nations' flags on variously appointed diversity days is permissable.

You rarely hear english spoken in my locality, and people don't queue at bus stops instead barging ahead, regardless of OAPs who have patiently stood in line. And
many people over the last 15 years have moved down to the coast because the area has been swamped by foreign cultures.

I fear the famous english sense of humour is being eroded. Much of the humour from the heyday of comedy in the 70s would now be considered inappropriate, even if racism was the last thing on peoples' minds.

Statements of fact are too easily conflated with racism.
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by DeletedAccount » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:28 pm

Ok... I said I didn't want to debate, but I am going to reply to your comment CodFlabandMuck.

You said that you agree with saying that a group of criminals of Asian descent involved in evil sexual offences are "practicing diversity" and you said that this is because it is a "fact". I felt it was a racist association linking Asian ethnic identity with pedophilia. (You also wrote, I think, that it was an "analogy", but I cannot understand your point).

You said I replied "immediately". I said I read David's post yesterday and replied this morning. Or does that still count as sufficiently "immediate" to justify your claim. What length of time would count as non-immediate? Two days? A week? A year? Or never?

I thought it was a racist comment. So I said so. It is not about questioning someone's right to express an opinion that is different to mine. It is about reacting to an opinion that I think is racist. David might think England will win next year's rugby World Cup. I don't (but I wish they would). Do you think I will call him racist because I disagree?

An evil group of pedophiles are imprisoned. Justly. They are all of Asian descent. What does that have to do with practicing diversity? These are evil criminals, guilty of grooming innocent victims and committing terrible offences. I will ask again. What does this have to do with "practicing diversity". Is this a behavior that you would link with all people of Asian-descent or as a problem particularly characteristic of Asian descent? Is that a "fact" that you think that I have "too easily conflated with racism"? Which is the "fact"?

Are you saying that these views aren't racist, or that they are racist but that you agree with them?

As I have said, I have no problem respecting people's rights to have views different to mine. That is fine in my book. You have expressed a view that encouraging diversity is detrimental to Britain's national identity. I don't agree, but I have no problem with you having that view. But providing a justification that is, in my view racist (pedophilia/grooming = Asian behaviour), well, I am going to say that I think it is racist. Because I do.

Thanks

ps - I always thought it was "crud, flab and muck" in my day. Did it change or is my memory wrong.

pps - the controls regarding flying flags, including the St George's flag, were changed in 2012. No Council approval required (which was the case in the past). It may be that some people/Councils don't know this and didn't have the 5 google-seconds required to find out: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _guide.pdf

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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by CodFlabAndMuck » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:06 pm

DickT_PeB wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:28 pm

You said that you agree with saying that a group of criminals of Asian descent involved in evil sexual offences are "practicing diversity" and you said that this is because it is a "fact". I felt it was a racist association linking Asian ethnic identity with pedophilia. (You also wrote, I think, that it was an "analogy", but I cannot understand your point).

You said I replied "immediately".



Are you saying that these views aren't racist, or that they are racist but that you agree with them?

ps - I always thought it was "crud, flab and muck" in my day. Did it change or is my memory wrong.
I expressly said that I did not agree with comparing diversity to gang rapists, although I used the word analogy in order to be more succint.

You are nit picking about timeframes.

My nom de plume is tongue in cheek. I am well aware of the correct housey slang, having shouted it 100s of times.

Thank you for correcting me on the law. I was probably thinking of occasions pre 2012.

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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by DeletedAccount » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:12 pm

hmmm... how do I delete this post?
Last edited by DeletedAccount on Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by DeletedAccount » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:30 pm

Dear CodFlabandMuck

Thanks for your reply.

The two statements in your initial reply that drove my response were:
It's a shame when anybody has the courage and honesty to express what they really feel, they are immediately accused of racism.[i.e. my comments about David's view that evil criminals of Asian-descent were "practicing diversity"]
.....
Statements of fact are too easily conflated with racism [which I presumed referred to David's "facts" that I was calling out as racist]
I am happy to accept that your intention was different to my reading of what you wrote - but I can see why I read your reply the way I did - and that we have very different views about these issues, as do others on the forum.

I still don't know whether you think that "comparing diversity to gang rapists" or more precisely, claiming that gang rapist of Asian-descent are "practising diversity", is racist. But probably best to leave that unanswered as I sense our discussion has reached its natural conclusion.

And to be honest, I really can't see why questioning whether my reply was "immediate" was nit-picking. But heh... one person's nit is another's person's louse.

My question about "Cod" versus "Crud" was genuine. Thanks for the answer.

Cheerio

Dick

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J.R.
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by J.R. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:40 pm

DickT_PeB wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:12 pm
hmmm... how do I delete this post?
Click edit and delete or I can do it for you if you define exactly which post you wish to delete.

I have deleted your second post requesting a deletion.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by DeletedAccount » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:46 pm

hmmm... If I click on the "edit" icon, I don't see a "delete" option. Is it hiding somewhere? Am I being blind? Is it to do with different user rights.

Thanks

D

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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by dsmg » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:38 pm

Hands up for crug, flab and muck. I'm sure it was crug in the 70s. Maybe it later got changed to crud.
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by sejintenej » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:43 pm

DickT_PeB wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:46 pm
hmmm... If I click on the "edit" icon, I don't see a "delete" option. Is it hiding somewhere? Am I being blind? Is it to do with different user rights.
I have seen and see no objection to you editing by deleting and simply writing "deleted" or similar. Thus anyone who had seen it and wanted to go back to it would find out what had happened
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by sejintenej » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:52 pm

DickT_PeB wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:10 am
sejintenej wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:16 pm
J.R. wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:11 pm
I'm so glad I started this thread. The above threads echo my original thoughts.
I do however, get annoyed at the constant use of the word 'Diversity'. .
Me too. Just accept that the Huddersfield 20 were practicing diversity. The concept is a foreign invention not suited to these green and pleasant isles. The proponents seem to, want concrete and hate filled isles. They have even banned the National Anthem in some circumstances and as for flying the Union Jack - you won't get council permission
Hello David

Am always happy to respect other people's views, however much they may differ from mine. But similarly, I always believe that we should challenge and question views that we find offensive.

So in that spirit, I would like you to know that I find your comment unpleasantly racist. It has been troubling me since I read it yesterday evening. You may argue that it is not racist. Or you may acknowledge that it is racist and defend that view. In either case I would disagree, and in both cases I would wish that you had not posted this on the forum.

I really don't want to start an argument, or even a long discussion about the tropes you have referenced. But I do want you to know how I feel about your comment.

Cheerio

Dick
Dick. I appreciate that others have different views and unless you are an AK carrier out to destroy this country I would not oppose you too strongly. However I am not too sure that I am quite so racist - my wife of 52 years is officially classified as "coloured".
‘So, still happy you voted for my namesake who took away your health insurance, raised your taxes and should turn out to be a mental patient?’

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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by michael scuffil » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:52 pm

my wife of 52 years is officially classified as "coloured".

In which country? There are no 'official' ethnic classifications in the UK. Apartheid South Africa had its Pass Laws, which stated criteria for official classification by race, including the get-out phrase 'obviously by appearance'. But Britain has never had such criteria.
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by michael scuffil » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:20 pm

I have worked in France, speak the language, studied in french, and one of my degrees is from a french university, and I'm very glad to see the tricolor flown from every town hall. My local council will not allow the St George to be displayed in pubs on St George's day, but the flying of other nations' flags on variously appointed diversity days is permissable.

Let's not be disingenuous, and let's not spread fake news.

The French fly tricolors on public buildings and have done (with interruptions) since 1790. It is a symbol of the state. The British on the whole don't fly flags so much, but the Union Flag flies over Parliament. That too is a symbol of the state.

The Scandinavian countries seem to have a flagpole outside every house and fly their flags everywhere, all the time. Dutch houses are also equipped with curious tubes used to hold small flagpoles, and they fly flags on royal occasions. These flags are not symbols of the state, but of national feeling. And they have a long tradition.

However, in none of these cases is flag-flying chauvinistic. The only parts of the UK where the Union Flag is flown routinely from private houses are the unionist areas of Northern Ireland, where its purpose is overtly aggressive, and quite different from flying it at Westminster.

Which brings us to the St George's flag. Apart from churches (it's the Church of England, not the Church of Britain, after all) and at football matches (same reason), its use was unknown till about 20 years ago. It has however now become an aggressively chauvinistic symbol. You may dispute this, but that would, as I said, be disingenuous. We all know what it means.

But of course your local council has no power whatever to ban it. That is fake news pure and simple.

When first-class seats on trains are reserved for black and brown people (as happened -- in reverse -- throughout the British Empire) there might be cause for resentment.
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Re: The Old Blue 2018

Post by michael scuffil » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:51 pm

If you asked my opinion on a variety of social issues, you would probably be surprised at how reactionary they are, and I too have serious reservations about self-conscious diversity-mongers.

However, the most serious problem facing mainly Europe, but other parts of the world too, is nationalism, and in Britain, nationalism is becoming increasingly racist. Whether we like it or not (and for this reason I'm making no judgement) globalization is here to stay and that means peoples will become increasingly mixed, racially and culturally. We have 'diversity' in any case, without pushing it. It's a fact of life and we should make the best, not the worst, of it.

To say, however, that South Asian grooming gangs constitute an instance of 'diversity' is gross. Most sex-slave rackets in Britain are not run by Pakistanis, and some have been distinctly home-grown, witness the Krays' supply of young men to the likes of Tom Driberg and Lord Boothby. There are criminal gangs in all communities, and of course in closed communities it is easier for them to operate. But they are untypical. Most communities (and certainly the Pakistani community) are generally law-abiding. Drawing public attention to the ethnicity of the criminals serves no purpose other than to invite hostility towards their communities, and that is reprehensible.
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