Big Brother?

[darthmaul]

The Government is ever-persistent...

ID cards have been voted in by the MP's as of tonight - the issue must still pass throught the Peers, but the process by which Britons will lose all vestiges of the old inherited privacy may be coming closer.

Should we have them? Should we be compelled to be identified at every step of our daily routine? Or is it a benefit that will help to decrease identity fraud in this country?

Don't even mention the amount of money this 'project' will cost...

[Jolyon]

Well well well. Looks like you made your feelings fairly clear on the topic from your choice of wording.

However, place it the other way around. What is the deterant factor of having every single UK resident's finger prints on record? Or for that mater their DNA signature? Assuming (big if) you have no intention of commiting any crime in the UK you have nothing to lose and also you gain the protection of the easy and speed of identification of a perpetrator should you be the victim of a crime.

However, as we are British I am certain that this system will not work, will be amazingly costly, be riddled with delays and loop-hole and most likely provide Mrs Blair and other QCs in millions of pounds dragging a piece of Westminster legistlation thru the European Court of Human Rights.

So, in theory it is a brilliant idea. In practice be afraid, very afraid.

[Mid A 15]

The Government is ever-persistent...

ID cards have been voted in by the MP's as of tonight - the issue must still pass throught the Peers, but the process by which Britons will lose all vestiges of the old inherited privacy may be coming closer.

Should we have them? Should we be compelled to be identified at every step of our daily routine? Or is it a benefit that will help to decrease identity fraud in this country?

Don't even mention the amount of money this 'project' will cost...

I am vehemently opposed to ID cards.

We are constantly forced to endure rhetoric from politicians as to how we must not allow "terrorists" to change our way of life. In the next breath they vote to effectively check and monitor our freedom of movement by introducing ID cards, something only previously done to my knowledge during World War 2. I maybe stupid but is not such a move a fundamental change to our way of life ergo the terrorists have won?

This is not all about terrorism though in reality. It is about a government cynically using fear of terrorism to steathily create a police state by removing a fundamental liberty from the British people whilst achieving a double whammy of building up a database on the population.

At the risk of over simplification of a complex subject, the tradition in Britain since the Magna Carta was signed in 1215 has been for an individual to do as (s)he likes until the people via Parliament decree otherwise. Much of the rest of the European Union has developed under the Napoleonic code whereby the State holds all the power and individuals have no rights or privileges unless they are granted by the state.

Perhaps the clearest manifestation of what I am trying to say is that in Britain you are innocent until proven guilty whereas in much of the rest of the EU the opposite applies.

It seems to me that one motivation for ID cards is a further step to form a large country called the EUSSR since most if not all other EU countries already have them.

In answer to Jolyon's point I have nothing to hide but as a free law abiding citizen why the hell should I be forced to change the way of life that my forefathers died to preserve in two World Wars?

[englishangel]

I was once of the opinion that ID cards would not affect law-abiding people (like me) but I am now swinging round.
I see it as on insidious way of controlling every aspect of our lives.
We already have more CCTV cameras than any other country (including the US), number recognition systems, pay more if we want to use cash rather than an Oyster card*, go on a database every time we use a credit/debit card and get tagetted according to our usage.
Have to OPT OUT of getting sales calls at home 2.15 on a Sunday being a favourite. (Incidentally I signed up for TPS and got 3 calls from 3 at the weekend).

In the US you have to use your Social Security number as ID and if you work for the government/bank etc you give fingerprints. You get a differnt suffix/prefix if you are not allowed to work etc. that seems to work.

What is wrong with using the NI card here?

*A Debit type card used for travel in London

[darthmaul]

I think I side with each of the posters above....

The BBC poll on this matter suggests;

VOTE RESULTS
Will ID cards make the UK safer?
Yes
25.00%
No
75.00%
27167 Votes Cast
Results are indicative and may not reflect public opinion (Their disclaimer!!!)

Whilst the original post suggests that I am against them, I think perhaps clarification is necessary.

The idea, the principles are generally sound - however, the fact that the Governement want to track our every movement is not something that endears itself to me... Now a safer country? Yes, of course, but at what cost? As Jolyon rightly states, the cost of this endeavour is HUGE.

So, perhaps we should all just use our NI numbers - this is a very sensible idea really, and well pointed out by englishangel...

Hmmmm....

[Richard Ruck]

I would happily carry one on a voluntary basis, but I too feel uneasy about more government interference.

When I lived in France I had to remember to carry my 'Carte de Séjour' with me, as it seems that the police can demand to see your papers at any time. If you have none, they can arrest you for vagrancy.

I don't know if this is still the case, but I don't think that it would go down too well here.

As a compromise, I tend to carry my passport around in my wallet (just in case I fall under the proverbial bus).

[Mid A 15]

I think I side with each of the posters above....

The BBC poll on this matter suggests;

VOTE RESULTS
Will ID cards make the UK safer?
Yes
25.00%
No
75.00%
27167 Votes Cast
Results are indicative and may not reflect public opinion (Their disclaimer!!!)

... Now a safer country? Yes, of course, but at what cost? As Jolyon rightly states, the cost of this endeavour is HUGE.

So, perhaps we should all just use our NI numbers - this is a very sensible idea really, and well pointed out by englishangel...

Hmmmm....

Interesting stats. The BBC will invariably side with the Government (they want their Charter renewed) hence the disclaimer. Two further brief points:

The Spanish equivalent of ID cards did not stop the Madrid outrage hence Spain was not a "safer" country.

Financial cost is very important but even more important in my view is the "cost" of the liberties, principles and rights sacrificed if ID cards are adopted.

[AKAP]

I would be with Joylon on this one. In principal I don't have a problem with the state holding details on me.
But, and a very big but, it appears that our new Tesco's have access to vehicle number plate records at the DVLC for the purposes of Identifying those who overstay in the car park.
The state's record of protecting private information about me looks poor and they will need to persuade me that any information will only be used for the correct purposes.

[Jolyon]

Further to what I said above:

One of the things that I just dont really understand about this country is the number of different numbers out there that all mean "Me" to the govenment.

NI number. NHS number. Tax account number. Driving Licence. If you are on the Police database another number... If you are on benifits you get yet another code, or sometimes more than one etc etc etc.

If this new system brings in 1 single code that means "Me" for the govenment to work from then that will be a good thing. If it goes some way into streamlining tax systems and the like brilliant. If it just costs us a fortune to get the card then massive amounts of tax spending to impliment and only leads to yet another code number then it is a waste of our time.

I dont have any real fears about a "Big Brother" state. I am in favour of efficent govenment first of all; discussions about the realative size and intrusion of that govenment are important, but I would rather that we got a £100 million service for our £100 million, rather than it seeming to cost twice as much.

The sale of state data to those companies who can make finacial profit from it is wrong though, and there is the census or private data collection if they need the information that much.

[Mid A 15]

Further to what I said above:

One of the things that I just dont really understand about this country is the number of different numbers out there that all mean "Me" to the govenment.

NI number. NHS number. Tax account number. Driving Licence. If you are on the Police database another number... If you are on benifits you get yet another code, or sometimes more than one etc etc etc.

If this new system brings in 1 single code that means "Me" for the govenment to work from then that will be a good thing. If it goes some way into streamlining tax systems and the like brilliant. If it just costs us a fortune to get the card then massive amounts of tax spending to impliment and only leads to yet another code number then it is a waste of our time.

I dont have any real fears about a "Big Brother" state. I am in favour of efficent govenment first of all; discussions about the realative size and intrusion of that govenment are important, but I would rather that we got a £100 million service for our £100 million, rather than it seeming to cost twice as much.

The sale of state data to those companies who can make finacial profit from it is wrong though, and there is the census or private data collection if they need the information that much.

Apologies.

[darthmaul]

...Mid A 15 - yes I believe it was in the form of a brand...

If only efficiency was something we could trust the Government to have a working knowledge of - one system for all, as they do in science-fiction, would be amazing and surely much easier to apply.

However, it's things like that stat about Tesco that really get me worried - see the Data Protection Act 1998...

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80029--l.htm#sch1

[Jolyon]

OUCH. Sorry thats tasteless and way out of line. Some of us have/had our roots in Poland and Germany.

And you ran right into Godwin's Law (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law for details)

[darthmaul]

I never knew such a 'law' could be written. However, I had heard inklings previously...

And yes, perhaps a bit over-the-line...

[ben ashton]

how do you fit a passport in a wallet?

[Richard Ruck]

how do you fit a passport in a wallet?

Easily, as long as you don't have a folding wallet.