Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, and is NON CH related - chat about the weather, or anything else that takes your fancy.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
J.R.
Forum Moderator
Posts: 14820
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:53 pm
Real Name: John Rutley
Location: Dorking, Surrey

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by J.R. » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:45 am

If you can trace your family tree, it proves you descended from apes.

I have my family tree on my fathers side back to the 1600's.

The real point of interest to me is that an ancestor in the 1700's was a 'publican' in Epsom, and 'died of drink' ! I await ribald comments !
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

Fjgrogan
Button Grecian
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:56 pm
Real Name: Frances Grogan (nee Haley)
Location: Surbiton, Surrey

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Fjgrogan » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:58 pm

We have one of those, JR. A relative of mine was licencee of the Half Moon in Putney - quite a large establishment. As a 50+ year-old widower he remarried, to his 29 year-old head barmaid, and eventually died of alcoholic poisoning, just a few days after rewriting his will, which of course left the bulk of his wealth to her, although he also left three months wages each to all his staff. Surprise, surprise, the executor was his wife's brother; the wife remarried soon afterwards, and her brother continued to manage the pub.
Frances Grogan (Haley) 6's 1956 - 62

'A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.'

User avatar
jhopgood
Button Grecian
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:26 pm
Real Name: John Hopgood
Location: Valencia

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by jhopgood » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:29 pm

In the early 1800's a forebear founded the Who'd Have Thought It pub, just off Plumstead Common. On the wall of the pub, the address is engraved in a brick as 3 Hopgood cottages. On the Census she is recorded as Beer Seller. He is a Market Gardener, which I take to mean, Labourer.
I am told that I still have some cousins who live around the common.
Barnes B 25 (59 - 66)

anniexf
Button Grecian
Posts: 1898
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:29 pm
Real Name: Ann Wilkinson 8s
Location: England

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by anniexf » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:00 pm

My maternal great-grandmother's first child William was born in the Red Rose, Etchingham, Sussex. She was already "a bit pregnant" when she got married at 19. There were 9 more children, 3 of whom died before their 3rd. birthdays.

Fjgrogan
Button Grecian
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:56 pm
Real Name: Frances Grogan (nee Haley)
Location: Surbiton, Surrey

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Fjgrogan » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:59 pm

In an attempt to steer this back towards the topic, whilst researching a friend's family tree I came across a parish record of a woman being 'churched' after childbirth. I remember seeing such a service mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer (and I know it was common practice in Judaism). Does anyone know whether it is a custom still performed today?
Frances Grogan (Haley) 6's 1956 - 62

'A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.'

anniexf
Button Grecian
Posts: 1898
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:29 pm
Real Name: Ann Wilkinson 8s
Location: England

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by anniexf » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:48 pm

Fjgrogan wrote:In an attempt to steer this back towards the topic, whilst researching a friend's family tree I came across a parish record of a woman being 'churched' after childbirth. I remember seeing such a service mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer (and I know it was common practice in Judaism). Does anyone know whether it is a custom still performed today?
Mea culpa Frances!
In 1968, in Mary 1 Ward of St. Thomas's, a vicar came round to ask if mothers wanted to be churched. Several did but I declined. I didn't approve of being "cleansed" of something so natural and joyful. It seemed so misogynistic - one of the reasons I left the C of E and joined the United Reformed Church, a far more civilised congregation.

User avatar
icomefromalanddownunder
Button Grecian
Posts: 1228
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:13 am
Real Name: Caroline Payne (nee Barrett)
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by icomefromalanddownunder » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:26 pm

Mum was churched after the birth of at least 3 of her 4 offspring. I was 12 when my brother was born and remember thinking, even then, that it was a bit of a testosterone-toss and somewhat insulting to both mother and newborn.

sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 3111
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown
Location: Essex

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by sejintenej » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:48 am

Fjgrogan wrote:In an attempt to steer this back towards the topic, whilst researching a friend's family tree I came across a parish record of a woman being 'churched' after childbirth. I remember seeing such a service mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer (and I know it was common practice in Judaism). Does anyone know whether it is a custom still performed today?
This subject has come up before. As a server in the 1950s I attended just one churching (which was carried out at the baptism from memory) and have never heard of it otherwise.

sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 3111
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown
Location: Essex

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by sejintenej » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:56 am

Fjgrogan wrote:We have one of those, JR. A relative of mine was licencee of the Half Moon in Putney - quite a large establishment. As a 50+ year-old widower he remarried, to his 29 year-old head barmaid, and eventually died of alcoholic poisoning, just a few days after rewriting his will, which of course left the bulk of his wealth to her, although he also left three months wages each to all his staff. Surprise, surprise, the executor was his wife's brother; the wife remarried soon afterwards, and her brother continued to manage the pub.
Dying of alcohol poisoning does not necessarily mean he drank a lot (though as a publican he might have felt it necessary to entertain his clients). Even now, poor distillation can mean the inclusion of wood alcohol in the final spirit and if Mr Kirby was right, 1cc = drunk, 2cc = blind and 3cc = death.
It was the discovery of a painting of me in Chartres by my daughter which started me off; it was a self portrait by a man with my blood father's family name though we haven't discovered a connection. No publicans but plenty of seamen, a couple of NHS bosses and it looks like a pop musician from California!

Angela Woodford
Button Grecian
Posts: 2880
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:55 am
Real Name: Angela Marsh
Location: Exiled Londoner, now in Staffordshire.

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Angela Woodford » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:26 pm

I came across a parish record of a woman being 'churched' after childbirth. I remember seeing such a service mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer (and I know it was common practice in Judaism). Does anyone know whether it is a custom still performed today?[/quote]

Yes! What about the Jewish mikveh, then?

.
"Baldrick, you wouldn't recognise a cunning plan if it painted itself purple, and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing "Cunning plans are here again.""

Fjgrogan
Button Grecian
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:56 pm
Real Name: Frances Grogan (nee Haley)
Location: Surbiton, Surrey

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Fjgrogan » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:35 pm

I think that was what I was referring to?
Frances Grogan (Haley) 6's 1956 - 62

'A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.'

Angela Woodford
Button Grecian
Posts: 2880
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:55 am
Real Name: Angela Marsh
Location: Exiled Londoner, now in Staffordshire.

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Angela Woodford » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:46 am

Angela Woodford wrote:I came across a parish record of a woman being 'churched' after childbirth. I remember seeing such a service mentioned in the Book of Common Prayer (and I know it was common practice in Judaism). Does anyone know whether it is a custom still performed today?
Yes! What about the Jewish mikveh, then?

.[/quote]

I believe that the mikveh is very much still part of Orthodox Jewish "family purity", isn't it? I admit, I find it a very attractive concept...
"Baldrick, you wouldn't recognise a cunning plan if it painted itself purple, and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing "Cunning plans are here again.""

Fjgrogan
Button Grecian
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:56 pm
Real Name: Frances Grogan (nee Haley)
Location: Surbiton, Surrey

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Fjgrogan » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:02 am

Not just after childbirth, but on a monthly basis, I believe? Orthodox Judasim is obsessed with ritual cleanliness - in fact rituals to absolve them from almost anything - hence all the taboos about leprosy, which in most cases was not Hansen's Disease, but any kind of skin affliction - imagine having eczema or psoriasis in OT times - but it made good sense if you were living a nomadic desert life to have some rules of basic hygiene. Particularly relelvant in Lent was the prophet's warning (sorry I forget which prophet! Amos, maybe?) to 'rend your hearts and not your garments' - rituals are not enough - it is what is in your heart and mind that makes the difference. Here endeth the sermon!!
Frances Grogan (Haley) 6's 1956 - 62

'A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.'

anniexf
Button Grecian
Posts: 1898
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:29 pm
Real Name: Ann Wilkinson 8s
Location: England

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by anniexf » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:00 am

I heard somewhere that the Orthodox Jews, those who practise these rituals, also have a morning prayer in which they thank God they were "not born a woman".

Fjgrogan
Button Grecian
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:56 pm
Real Name: Frances Grogan (nee Haley)
Location: Surbiton, Surrey

Re: Does anyone on this forum go to church?

Post by Fjgrogan » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:14 pm

H'm. If nobody was born a woman the Orthodox Jews and everybody else would soon die out. Am I right in thinking that to be defined as a Jew, your mother must be Jewish?
Frances Grogan (Haley) 6's 1956 - 62

'A clean house is a sign of a broken computer.'

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests