Politics

[LongGone]

From this side of the Atlantic it seems inconceivable. For me the saddest comment was by a youngster who summarized the result as "Apparently our grandparents hate immigrants more than they love us"
Though to be fair, if the under 30s had turned out at the same rate as the over 50s, the result would probably have gone the other way. So, as a group they are their own worst enemy.
Possibly the silver lining over here is that the tactics that were used will be recognized by voters and lead to a rational, rather than an emotional, decision.

[J.R.]

From this side of the Atlantic it seems inconceivable. For me the saddest comment was by a youngster who summarized the result as "Apparently our grandparents hate immigrants more than they love us"
Though to be fair, if the under 30s had turned out at the same rate as the over 50s, the result would probably have gone the other way. So, as a group they are their own worst enemy.
Possibly the silver lining over here is that the tactics that were used will be recognized by voters and lead to a rational, rather than an emotional, decision.

The younger peple have learnt a valuable lesson. "If you don't bother to vote, you don't get !!"

[jhopgood]

A chance to vote in a referendum that directly affects me would have been welcome.
It´s not as if the vote was for MP´s etc.

[michael scuffil]

Boris-speak and what it means.

Take this sentence from his Telegraph piece yesterday:
'British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.'

Whatever else he is, Boris the Brevenant is not stupid. He knows that it's not in Britain's power to grant these rights unilaterally. In other words, they can only be based on reciprocity. He might just as well have said:

'EU citizens will still be able to come and work in the UK, to live, to travel, to study, to buy homes and to settle down.'

(Mutatis mutandis regarding access to the single market, actually, but I couldn't find a sentence illustrating the point quite so succinctly.)

This is all fine by me, but it still seems rather a drastic way to further one's political career.

[sejintenej]

'British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.'

Whatever else he is, Boris the Brevenant is not stupid. He knows that it's not in Britain's power to grant these rights unilaterally. In other words, they can only be based on reciprocity. He might just as well have said:

'EU citizens will still be able to come and work in the UK, to live, to travel, to study, to buy homes and to settle down.'

True. Brits have been living and working in France and Italy for decades and their citizens the same in the UK. They would need work permits and residence permits. The last firm I worked for had a number of such work permits to allow staff from other countries to be employed -( bureaucratic but no great problem).

It depends on how tortoiselike the Home Office is.

[michael scuffil]

'British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.'

Whatever else he is, Boris the Brevenant is not stupid. He knows that it's not in Britain's power to grant these rights unilaterally. In other words, they can only be based on reciprocity. He might just as well have said:

'EU citizens will still be able to come and work in the UK, to live, to travel, to study, to buy homes and to settle down.'

True. Brits have been living and working in France and Italy for decades and their citizens the same in the UK. They would need work permits and residence permits. The last firm I worked for had a number of such work permits to allow staff from other countries to be employed -( bureaucratic but no great problem).

It depends on how tortoiselike the Home Office is.

That is obviously not how Boris sees it (thank God). The abolition of work and residence permits is THE great achievement of Europe in the last 50 years. And they won't return. As Boris said, immigration wasn't an issue in the referendum.

[sejintenej]

. The abolition of work and residence permits ........................... And they won't return. As Boris said, immigration wasn't an issue in the referendum.

If there are to be no residence permits or work permits then how will there be any controls at all?

We are already seeing controls - the firm in East Anglia which requires alll staff to be fluent in Polish. Another company in Lakeside with a job advert in its window written entirely in Polish (if it were not for the email address for applications I wouldn't have known what it was because I don't read ? Polish.) Brits are being kept out of jobs, council accommodation etc. in their own country because incomers are favoured.

IMHO it is the attacks on our culture by uncontrolled unelected faceless bureaucrats which are part of the problem - it is illegal to have a Red Cross on first aid stuff - it must be German green for exapmle. We canot even complaining about Adolf Merkel succeeding where Adolf H****R failed.

[michael scuffil]

I had hoped that Boris would find a way out of this utter mess by virtually going back on everything he said during the campaign (he's certainly capable of that, and already begun) and telling the truth at last (he may even be capable of that). But this is looking unlikely: if he runs for leadership, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished, because he will have failed his few friends. If he does not run, he is finished, because he will be seen to be a coward. If he runs, wins and really does pull the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession, and the total ruin of England/Wales as a place of any decency. Then he is also finished. Boris knows all this. When he acts the dumb blond it is just that: an act. So he is finished in all except one scenario: that he runs for the leadership and loses. That's probably just what he wants, just as he must have wanted to lose the referendum: influence without responsibility (the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages, as Stanley Baldwin once said of the proprietors of the Daily Mail and Daily Express).

I leave you with a poem by Brian Allgar (ColB 1954-62):

The Lament of the Stupid Voter

Oh, silly me – I went and voted ‘Leave’,
Because I felt quite sure ‘Remain’ would win.
But if I’d known they’d lose, I do believe
I would have sanely voted to stay in.

So if we get another chance to choose,
Of course I’ll vote ‘Remain’ … But hang about -
If I do that, and next time ‘Leave’ should lose,
Perhaps I’ll wish I’d voted to get out?

[michael scuffil]

If there are to be no residence permits or work permits then how will there be any controls at all?


Are there any controls on Brummies working in Manchester? Are there controls on New Yorkers working in California? Europe can only survive in the world if it sees itself as one country. So no, there can't be any controls. And that is the most likely outcome, because the Norway solution is the only way to avoid economic ruin.

Incidentally, red crosses are the norm in Germany. If they're not allowed in the UK, that's British law, not EU law. And if it were EU law (which it's not) it would be largely dictated by British officials, who run the show in Brussels (quite well, actually).

[J.R.]

If there are to be no residence permits or work permits then how will there be any controls at all?


Are there any controls on Brummies working in Manchester? Are there controls on New Yorkers working in California? Europe can only survive in the world if it sees itself as one country. So no, there can't be any controls. And that is the most likely outcome, because the Norway solution is the only way to avoid economic ruin.

Incidentally, red crosses are the norm in Germany. If they're not allowed in the UK, that's British law, not EU law. And if it were EU law (which it's not) it would be largely dictated by British officials, who run the show in Brussels (quite well, actually).

Not sure I understand you, Michael.

By 'Red Crosses', do you mean the flag of St George, which anyone can fly ?

The Union Flag, (Jack) can only be flown with local authority consent, which no one seems to worry about. Mind you, the way things seem to be progressing, the Union flag looks like becoming obsolete !

[rockfreak]

As far as immigration not being an issue Michael.......over here it seemed to be the predominant, if only, issue. An Observer interview with a constituent of Ebbw Vale, an area particularly badly hit by Thatcher in the 80s and which has scarcely recovered, pointed out to the man that what business there was had been mainly subsidised with EU money - "EU Enterprise Zone" etc, up on the fascias of business parks. And also that Ebbw Vale doesn't actually get massive immigrant influx by the standards of other places. But he wasn't listening, "It's time for change", he declared in the words of a thousand meaningless political campaign slogans.

[sejintenej]

By 'Red Crosses', do you mean the flag of St George, which anyone can fly ?

Given the context I suspect he means the emblem on first aid kits

The Union Flag, (Jack) can only be flown with local authority consent, which no one seems to worry about. Mind you, the way things seem to be progressing, the Union flag looks like becoming obsolete !

I do recall a case of someone being prosecuted for flying the Union Jack without consent. There are rules about flying it in conjunction with other flags but that is another matter. Of course we have the situation where we give money to Brussels and they give our money to say Ebbw Vale demanding that they fly the EU flag! I'm amazed that farmers don't get prosecuted for not flying the EU flag for that same reason

[rockfreak]

It's tearing families apart. The worst divide since the English Civil War. A case of: "When did you last see your (Brexit voting) father?" I fear someone may lose their head at the end of it all. Actually, I rather relish the idea of someone losing their head - like the entire Tory front bench. The arrogant pompous prig Cameron was at it again today. Whether you support Jeremy Corbyn or not, he asked a perfectly legit question at PMQs about the rising level of child poverty (official figures). Cameron ignored it and started raving about Labour's leadership problems. Unfortunately he neglected to mention his own party's leadership problems. After all, they are the governing party and will have to steer the ship of state through the next few difficult months. But he never fails to fall back on his pompous, priggish, arrogant, bullying, public school manner. Happily we won't have to listen to it much longer. Oh yes, and the boy Hilto is back on our TV screens, giving us the wisdom of his newly-discovered, bleeding heart, one nation conservatism.

[rockfreak]

I note that my old contemporary Brian Allgar is still composing pithy poems. He used to compose them when he was in Col.B.

[J.R.]

I note that my old contemporary Brian Allgar is still composing pithy poems. He used to compose them when he was in Col.B.

That name rings a bell, Freaky. Was he tall with dark hair ? What were his years in Coleridge B?

Possibly him in this photo, viewtopic.php?f=54&t=508

Second row up, (Housemasters row), far right hand end as you view.