Politics

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, and is NON CH related - chat about the weather, or anything else that takes your fancy.

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rockfreak
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:06 pm

Brilliant turnout in London today for the Remain cause. I still don't think Brexit is going to happen. I believe that if a hard Brexit stares us in the face the markets will go on the attack with a vengeance, savaging the pound, sterling assets and government bond prices. The 13% the pound has lost against the Euro (and similar against the dollar) will start to look like peanuts. And as we know from 1992 no Chancellor can sit idly by and watch the currency depreciate for ever.

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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:11 pm

Brexit will happen or there will be either a revolution or a civil war.

Another referendum ? Best of three ? Best of five ? Let Comrade Corbynski take over ?

I'd sooner let the Saudi's take over.

They don't muck about !!!!!
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Re: Politics

Post by Golfer » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:00 pm

This is nonsense.
The Brexit we will get will be one that no-one voted for.
We need a second vote on the Brexit deal that is eventually agreed.
Because the deal we will get is not really Brexit.
And if we get a "no deal Brexit" then it definitely wasn't what we voted for.
So then we absolutely have to have another People's Vote.
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scrub
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Re: Politics

Post by scrub » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:57 am

Thing is though the referendum ballot just had two options; "Remain" or "Leave". That was it.

Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, Cake-and-eat-it Brexit, Unicorns-for-all Brexit, Dump-on-the-economy Brexit, Become-a-vassal-state-of-the-US-and-let-the-Torys-properly-kill-off-the-NHS Brexit, etc etc etc. All of them involve leaving the EU and therefore give the 51% of the electorate who turned up exactly what they voted for.

To leave the EU.

That's all was on the ballot paper, that's all the choice we had, and leave was the choice the voting majority went with. Doesn't matter how big the majority was it was still a "first past the post" advisory vote. Anyone who's lived in a country that holds referendums could see that this one was going to turn into an ugly mess.

There will not be a second 'advisory' referendum. Not because it will start a civil war (which, really? Aliens landing in Hyde Park is more likely), but because a) no-one will want to write it, and b) no-one has the capacity to write it.
The first one was a dog's breakfast, poorly conceived, barely planned, and abysmally executed (like many of my GCSE essays). Neither the government nor the civil service have gotten any savvier since then.
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Re: Politics

Post by Katharine » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:03 pm

Firstly I’ll state that I voted Remain and would still love to change things to that result, with my new Irish passport I will still be European.

Two things I find difficult to understand,

1) if the Brexiteers are so sure they are right, and the majority, why are they so against a second referendum?

2) if the reason we cannot have a second referendum is because the people have spoken why do we have a General Election every few years? Surely the people spoke, so that result should stand?
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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:26 pm

The mere thought of another vote or referendum and the possibility of the UK having to continue being ruled by European despots, alcoholics and wannabe's sickens me to the core.

I have no problem with some sort of trade deal on tariffs as long as it isn't all in their favour.

I don't want their courts telling us what we can/cannot do in our country.

Immigration has to be more heavily controlled than it is under EU regulations

I could go on and on and on but I expect you get my drift by now.

Tin hats on everyone !!!!
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:01 pm

Katharine wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:03 pm
Firstly I’ll state that I voted Remain and would still love to change things to that result, with my new Irish passport I will still be European.
Voting aside, I also was born a citizen of the Irish Republic (which I discovered a year ago) though I haven't got my passport yet. Beware; someone amongst us is going to complain about CH educating these "foreign refugees". (I was from my mother's womb timely delivered, not ripped a la Macduff, in England)

Two months ago I discovered that I had had an Irish brother who was shot down and killed over Essen and also a neice who is still living..
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:19 pm

J.R. wrote: The mere thought of another vote or referendum and the possibility of the UK having to continue being ruled by European despots, alcoholics and wannabe's sickens me to the core.
Immigration has to be more heavily controlled than it is under EU regulations
You do realise that MPs can never lie. As a member of the EU Britain can never be inundated by refugees from Africa or the Middle East because an MP said so.

Immediately before the whole Brexit argument started a Labour MP was on LBC Radio stating that we have nothing to fear. He explained that in order to enter Britain as a European resident either a European ID card or passport would be required. A refugee must live in Germany for eight years before they can get either document of a type valid to travel to another EU country. For France the period was either five of six years so Britain has absolutely nothing to fear. (I should add that a member of the Legion Etranger automatically is given French nationality upon retirement and for others the conditions are very strict)
What he didn't refer to was that some more easterly EU countries were reported to be handing out such documents as refugees entered over their borders. He didn't mention that at least two EU countries (Cyprus and Malta)** allow residency and nationality and passports in exchange for a cash downpayment. Britain is not totally innocent.

** I am not sure if Monaco is in the EU.
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:01 pm

Katharine is quite right. What's wrong with a second referendum? The week before the first referendum, when it was thought from the polls that Remain might shade it, Nigel Farrago said that if it was a close call there should be another referendum. Well it was a close call Nigel so where's our second referendum?
I've never understood this complaint about us being rule takers from Brussels. We elect MEPs to the European Parliament just like other countries. I'd be interested if, just for once, Brexiiteers could give a couple of examples of the rules that are being imposed on us that they object to. Product safety rules? Cleaner water? Cleaner beaches? The writ of law? Habeus Corpus? Due process - as opposed to the dodgy autocracies that are being imposed in Poland and Hungary and which Europe should be taking a stronger line on? The Enlightenment values which helped inspire the European project are in danger of being forgotten. As Yeats said: "The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity".

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Re: Politics

Post by scrub » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:09 pm

J.R. wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:26 pm
The mere thought of another vote or referendum and the possibility of the UK having to continue being ruled by European despots, alcoholics and wannabe's sickens me to the core.

I have no problem with some sort of trade deal on tariffs as long as it isn't all in their favour.

I don't want their courts telling us what we can/cannot do in our country.

Immigration has to be more heavily controlled than it is under EU regulations

I could go on and on and on but I expect you get my drift by now.

Tin hats on everyone !!!!
Just a quick thought;
1 - :lol: Have you seen the state of the UK's current crop of politicians? We've got a full deck of boozehounds, lightweights, autocrats, and sycophants, and that's just the opposition! The Tory whip's dirty dossier (an amusing read if you find the unexpurgated version) showed we're blessed with a cornucopia in that regard, and that's before we start on the DUP and the influence they now hold of the fate of the UK ...

2 - Trade deals always favour the big spoon and when that used to be us we made full advantage of that, but now ...?

3 - If we hadn't done the writing/amending and pushed for many of those laws and then voted to accept the overwhelming majority it'd make a better point. Maybe if a more of our MEPs did more than file dodgy expense claims, run up bar tabs, and fight amongst themselves, things would have been different. For example, if our MEP fisheries rep turned up once in a while and did the job they were paid for ... Hmm, wonder who that was?

4 - As an immigrant I always find this funny. The UK decided not to put the handbrake on accession country migration unlike most other EU countries. Also the UK has always had 100% control over non-EU migration, that has, was, and always will be an internal matter and nothing the EU had any say over.

The EU has more than enough farcical decisions and blame on its ledger but at some point the UK has to accept that we did a lot of this to ourselves.
ThB 89-91, PeA 93-96

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Re: Politics

Post by graham » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:42 pm

J.R. wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:26 pm


Immigration has to be more heavily controlled than it is under EU regulations
I just have to leave this here for you, JR

https://www.facebook.com/BrexitBrits/vi ... 073658054/
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J.R.
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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:32 pm

graham wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:42 pm
J.R. wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:26 pm


Immigration has to be more heavily controlled than it is under EU regulations
I just have to leave this here for you, JR

https://www.facebook.com/BrexitBrits/vi ... 073658054/
I can't open your link as I won't have anything to do with Farcebook, especially now that Cloggy has joined their ranks.
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Re: Politics

Post by CodFlabAndMuck » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:05 pm

Golfer wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:00 pm
This is nonsense.
The Brexit we will get will be one that no-one voted for.
We need a second vote on the Brexit deal that is eventually agreed.
Because the deal we will get is not really Brexit.
And if we get a "no deal Brexit" then it definitely wasn't what we voted for.
So then we absolutely have to have another People's Vote.
We are a parliamentary democracy, we are not governed by referenda, so May should up the ante and call an election on a Remain ticket and end all this nonsense once and for all.

It's a dirty trick, but so what, and she would regain a majority.

I suspect another referendum would return the same result. People who previously voted Leave will vote for anything which is not Remain.

If the Nissan car workers and the Welsh voted leave, what chance is there of a different result?

It's worth remembering that this has never been about the will of the people or what's best for the future of the country. It's all about internal tory party struggles, personal political ambition and the ideological whims of a wealthy elite.
Last edited by CodFlabAndMuck on Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Avon
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Re: Politics

Post by Avon » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:09 pm

CodFlabAndMuck wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:05 pm
I suspect anothere referendum would return the same result. People who previously voted Leave will vote for anything which is not Remain.
Timing is key. Remainers are outliving the Brexiteers.

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Re: Politics

Post by Katharine » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:17 pm

Would more of the young people vote this time? The ones who presumed that Remain would win so there was no need for their vote.

In this corner of North West Wales I didn’t see a single leave poster. Gwynedd voted to remain.
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