Politics

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sejintenej
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej »

eucsgmrc wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:08 pm Teresa May's "deal" involves the idea of a frictionless border between Northern Ireland and (the Republic of) Ireland. That's a border between the European Customs Union and a territory outside the customs union. A lot of people (but not everyone who matters) seem to believe that a frictionless border is possible.

If you can have a frictionless border between the customs union and not-in-the-union, then
1. if it's truly frictionless, then what's the problem if it's an internal border within a state? (bear with me - I know why the DUP don't like the sound of that)
2. if it's possible at all, wouldn't it be easier if it's operated by the same state on both sides of the border?

So how about letting Scotland be on the Customs Union side of the border? Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and would be happy with free movement of people and so on.

Then Northern Ireland could be on the Customs Union side (which they also voted for in the referendum) without being treated differently from the rest of the UK. So, no change at all needed in the border arrangements between NI and Ireland.
John. One of the big problems is that a lorry from the continent can land at Baile atha Claith (Dublin to you), drive unchecked into Ulster, bung the goods on another lorry from Belfast to Liverpool and not come under customs scrutiny and perhaps import taxes. Eq ually immigrants can get into Eire, walk unchecked over the border and unchecked get a ferry to England.

The border is in fact very porous and also Irish law has some "interesting" features about identity. Remember that the vast vast majority of people in Ulster (including the DUP people) are actually citizens of the Republic of Ireland fully entitled to a Southern Ireland passport
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sejintenej
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej »

eucsgmrc wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:08 pm
So how about letting Scotland be on the Customs Union side of the border? Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and would be happy with free movement of people and so on.
I'd love it; charge every lorry to/from Scotland from/to Dover £50000 and our roads might improve. then of course there are charges for the transit authority.
Any individual who tries to sneak in illegally - 50 years on Fair Isle without any appeal or parole for good behaviour! Brussels might not like it but we would be fre of the EU courts.

I'm also thinking about a responsible man who carries a British passport, is a citizen of Ireland and would get Scottish citizenship whilst seriously involved with the British military!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
eucsgmrc wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:08 pm Then Northern Ireland could be on the Customs Union side (which they also voted for in the referendum) without being treated differently from the rest of the UK. So, no change at all needed in the border arrangements between NI and Ireland.
Ulster has no identity cards so how do we stop Southern Irish and not Ulstermen and their goods at our border? Yes, we USED to have ID cards and used to be rigorously checked at the dock^^ in Liverpool but they no longer exist. (^^stilll gives me bad dreams)
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rockfreak
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak »

UKIP (lately transformed into the Tommy Robinson Appreciation Society) and other Europhobes are crying foul about the idea of a second referendum. But suppose that Harold Macmillan's "events, dear boy" overtake us? Foreign investment is already drying up because of uncertainty with regard to Brexit. Today's Guardian tells us in the Financial pages that people are already starting to rein in their debt because of worries about the future. This is most unusual for the British who have been weaned by Margaret Thatcher and Nigel Lawson on huge amounts of private credit as a way of life - "Usury is next to Godliness" was the motto of the oddly, Methodist-brought up Thatcher. It only needs Nissan and Toyota to stand up and say the obvious: that it will not be worth staying here if they have to pay to access the EU market and that their lorries will be held up at the ports, thus shafting the whole point of "just-in-time manufacturing". Imagine; even Banker Brown's cases of Bordeaux and Burgundy will be held up.
And then we shall see the pound, sterling assets and gilt-prices (government bonds) come under attack in a way that will make the last two years seem like the phoney war. The pound is already at near parity with the Euro and getting on that way against the Dollar. Strange, but when I was younger the right-wing press were always inveighing against a weakening pound, suggesting that it was a national humiliation. Today, they can't wait to see it slump to the levels of...well what? The level of the currency in Weimar Germany before the war perhaps? And we all know where that led.
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Re: Politics

Post by Golfer »

No chance of a solution on the Irish border.
Ireland remembers Cromwell, 1798, 1845/6, 1921
Ireland will not forget and the boot is on the other foot for the first time in history.
GB should get used to being a second tier nation.
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak »

Yes, Fintan O'Toole who writes for the Irish Independent and sometimes for the Guardian and Observer is making some pertinent comments on these lines. Sadly, the animosity between Britain and Ireland was just starting to settle into the mists of history (why, our rugby team even went back to play at Croke Park) when this Brexit stuff stirred everything up again. Recent quotes from the DUP leadership are not encouraging. They are apparently not for turning. "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right." In spite of the fact that a new generation of young people in the province have different ideas. I've always found it odd that the Orangemen seem to identify as more British than those of us on the mainland. After all, who wears bowler hats these days? Of course, to some extent, you could say this about the Rangers supporters in Scotland. Remember that hilarious moment when Paul Gascoigne scored his first goal for Rangers? He'd obviously asked his team mates what he should do when he scored, and they suggested he should dash over to the home fans and mime playing the flute.
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Re: Politics

Post by Katharine »

I’ve been surprised not to see any comments from Freaky on the shenanigans of the last few weeks. I don’t think anyone can be happy about the way things are going.

Personally, I can’t see anything wrong with the backstop and would far rather have that and a deal than to crash out without a deal.

Did I ever report that I had received my new passport, it all took a long time but it’s here now. I’ve always claimed to be British rather than English, which is, of course, the assumption when you’re not Welsh in this part of the world. When I told one of my very Welsh friends about the new passport, her comment was We’ve always known your Mam was Irish, so I’m not surprised.

My sons qualify for passports too, but it’s taking longer for them, they have to register as Overseas born Irish citizens first. Me, I’ve had dual nationality all my life, by Irish law, I just didn’t realise it!
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rockfreak
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak »

The business community, here and in both bits of Ireland, have finally found their voices and are loudly worried. Not before time in my opinion. But the Leaver brigade are shouting "project fear". Again and again vox pop on the television news are asking why we can't just get on with it. No-one seems to be explaining the way that the WTO works and that the EU are part of the WTO. They can put the arm on us any time if things aren't sorted to the EU's satisfaction. Jacob Rees-Mogg is apparently moving his hedge fund to Ireland (rats? sinking ships?). Will the peripatetic Banker Brown (now back in Essex) also move his affairs to the Emerald Isle? Or maybe The British Virgin Islands?
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak »

Katharine, further to my last post I've just been watching a lecture on You Tube by Sir Ivan Rogers titled "Where Did Brexit Come From and Where is it Going to Take the UK?" Rogers is a civil servant with long EU experience and he is not hopeful. He resigned from his negotiating job at one point, presumably because he realised quite early on the hopelessness of the UK's case in any battle with Brussels. He particularly focuses on the paradox of the backstop. Even if we have a soft border between the two bits of Ireland, where does the hard border between Britain and the EU then lie? And he also focuses on the problems for service industries. I mentioned the problems for our manufacturers but these days we are more pre-eminent in services (after Thatcher collapsed half of our manufacturing as a proportion of GDP since 1980). Absolutely nothing has yet been decided with the EU or the WTO with regard to services. All these things are dependent on future negotiation with the WTO. Yet the Brexiteers appear to have nothing useful to say about them. There's already a big punch-up with China going on about intellectual property rights (led largely by the Americans) but since this kind of stuff also involves us and our creative industries (some of the things we are rather good at these days) we presumably need a big powerful bloc (like the EU) on our side. At the precise moment that we cut ourselves adrift in a bid to emulate the days when we had an empire and ruled the waves, militarily and economically.
sejintenej
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:47 pm UKIP (lately transformed into the Tommy Robinson Appreciation Society) and other Europhobes are crying foul about the idea of a second referendum. .
Democracy is the acceptance of the view of the majority. The electorate have been given the choice and have voted out despite the efforts (immoral in some cases) .
Ergo those who want to go against the decision of the majority do not accept democracy. That makes them akin to petty dictators or the school kid who threatens "I'm bigger than you and I will take your sweeties"!
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
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Re: Politics

Post by Katharine »

David, I agree there was a Referendum and that there was a small majority of those who voted voted Leave. Is there any way of deciding whether they meant Leave on current ideas? Would they have voted differently had they known?

I can see nothing wrong in having a second referendum on the lines of This is what Leave means please make an educated choice between Leave on these terms or Remain.

The referendum was a snapshot of ideas at the time, just as any General Election is, nobody thinks twice of having another General Election five years later.
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rockfreak
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak »

Are we sure of the current mood, Sejintenej? I know that opinion polls aren't always reliable but in the last six months there hasn't been one that has put Leave ahead and the most recent and biggest, two weeks ago, had Remain ahead by twelve points. Every day the serious papers and often the TV news feature worries from businessmen, multi-national and independent, about the costs and disruptions of not being in the single market and customs union. And tonight there was a worrying feature on the BBC news about certain essential medicines already running out of stock. Brexit was touted as a probable contributor.
As far as Ireland goes, it's only the most obvious manifestation of the general problems that will come when we have to work out where the UK borders butt up against the EU. Dover/Calais may prove to be as problematic. What is worrying is the cowardice of the Remain MPs in Leave constituencies. The 19th century MP and guru of One Nation Conservatism Edmund Burke said something to the effect of: "I owe my constituents my judgement, not my obedience". In other words, I'm not just a rubber stamper. I believe that all MPs should be prepared to be deselected if push comes to shove and they honestly cannot endorse some measure that's being voted on. After all, in their position they should be able to get another job.
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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. »

Well, it keeps people talking.

Personally, I'm sick of the whole thing !!
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Re: Politics

Post by jhopgood »

J.R. wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:16 am Personally, I'm sick of the whole thing !!
I agree John.
However, as someone who will be directly affected by Brexit, I still have a problem with the fact that I was not allowed to be involved in the referendum, and yet I am directly affected by the outcome.
Hence, I would dispute that it was a democratic decision and that I should accept it.
I read somewhere that there are about 120,000 British pensioners living in Spain, few of whom had the right to vote in the referendum, but all of whom will be affected by the outcome.
We have no idea what our status will be after March 29, whether we will still have access to the Spanish National health service, as most of us do in reciprocal agreements with the UK, whether we will have to pay to get in and out of Europe, etc.
Some people I know are taking out Spanish Nationality to protect the rights of their children in Spain, others feel that both the UK and EU are playing at brinkmanship, and that it will be alright on the day.
They've had 2 years to get to this position and nobody is any the clearer what will happen.
I was responsible for Y2K for my company in Argentina, and I know what would have happened to me if I had no idea whether we would make it at the beginning of November 1999.
It's a pity something similar can't happen to those who have got us into this mess.
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rockfreak
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak »

Don't expect anything useful from this side of the Med John. The Maybot is being blown hither and thither by the various factions in her party. The Guardian political sketchwriter John Crace believes that she is now reduced to taking advice from the four pot plants in the cabinet room in Number 10.
The increasingly fanatical Leave brigade keep warning us that there will be trouble on the streets if Parliament flouts the will of the people and tries to reverse Brexit. Personally I think that this will amount to little more than the friends of Tommy Robinson and the West Ham Inter City Firm trying it on (OK, with a bit of help from Millwall). I've no doubt that JR's old mates in the Bill will be equal to the task and will get the nightsticks out and crack a few skinheaded skulls. I look forward to a bit of blood in the gutters.
sejintenej
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:54 pm Don't expect anything useful from this side of the Med John. The Maybot is being blown hither and thither by the various factions in her party. The Guardian political sketchwriter John Crace believes that she is now reduced to taking advice from the four pot plants in the cabinet room in Number 10.
The increasingly fanatical Leave brigade keep warning us that there will be trouble on the streets if Parliament flouts the will of the people and tries to reverse Brexit........................ I've no doubt that JR's old mates in the Bill will be equal to the task and will get the nightsticks out and crack a few skinheaded skulls. .
Far more simple - any MP who tries to stop Brexit will be prevented from being re-elected.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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