Politics

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, and is NON CH related - chat about the weather, or anything else that takes your fancy.

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Mid A 15
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Re: Politics

Post by Mid A 15 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:38 pm

anniexf wrote:
rockfreak wrote:I got your incredibly long reply but don't see why it can't be on the Politics site.
Rockfreak, you have my sympathy. I too have experienced such PMs. Best to ignore, I've found.
Carry on, mate - you'll never convert this bunch, but it's such fun to watch them metaphorically turning purple in self-righteous indignation! Pompous old f*rts to a man. And sadly, most of the women. Bye now, :D
As a pompous old f*rt I hope all is well with you Annie! :wink:

For me apathy is the biggest crime politically. Too many of us simply allow the pigs in the blue, red or yellow rosettes to set their sat navs to locate their constituencies and check over their taxpayer funded second homes once every five years whilst we meekly re-elect them. If we can be bothered to walk to the Polling station that is.

We should be calling them to proper account as an electorate far more than we do rather than unthinkingly toeing a party line. As Rockfreak says, albeit from a very different perspective, hopefully UKIP's recent successes are the start of that process.
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:23 pm

Thanks Annie (again) for your support, and Andy. As we seem to be agreed, the protest parties of whatever complexion are small yet but may just help nudge the debate in a different direction. I take the view that Europe has a role to play in many things (cross border security, cleaner water, cleaner beaches and, inevitably as a UK Uncutter, the hopeful possibility that we may one day get together with the rest of the EU to deal with the offshore tax havens and get back the much greater amount of tax that is owed to our exchequer than anything we lose to the folk in Benefits Street. The strange anomaly about the protest parties is the link between left and right. They all want an end to austerity, and the money spent on the people and reflation instead of endless QE thrown uselessly at the banks. This is where Nigel Farrago and UKIP are actually adrift from the other right-wing parties. They seem to want a version of national socialism while Farrago wants a version of national Thatcherism (only even more vicious) as I've outlined. But I stick to my original point that the leftist protest parties want reform without the vicious xenophobia that always results in some unfortunate immigrant getting hurt or killed.
By the way, UK Uncut goes back to basics on Saturday 14 June with picketing (and maybe occupations) of Vodaphone around the country. Sadly I won't be able to make this one since I'll be on my way back from a cragging jaunt in the Lake District, but there will be others before the summer's out.

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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:39 pm

As a postscript, I've just noticed your comments about Hitler and national socialism, Andy, and of course you're quite right. Economically Hitler was left-wing. He was keeping a note of how Roosevelt's New Deal was going in America. By 1936 enough Germans were back at work (not Jews and dissidents, of course!) that Hitler got an overwhelming vote of confidence when he held the plebiscite. I guess that had he not demonised the Jews and refrained from invading other countries, he would perhaps be seen as Germany's Roosevelt in history. Why do the right-wing parties take this tack? Is it easier to gain publicity and stir up the popular press by finding scapegoats?

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Re: Politics

Post by anniexf » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:25 pm

Mid A 15 wrote:
anniexf wrote:
rockfreak wrote:I got your incredibly long reply but don't see why it can't be on the Politics site.
Rockfreak, you have my sympathy. I too have experienced such PMs. Best to ignore, I've found.
Carry on, mate - you'll never convert this bunch, but it's such fun to watch them metaphorically turning purple in self-righteous indignation! Pompous old f*rts to a man. And sadly, most of the women. Bye now, :D
As a pompous old f*rt I hope all is well with you Annie! :wink:

For me apathy is the biggest crime politically. Too many of us simply allow the pigs in the blue, red or yellow rosettes to set their sat navs to locate their constituencies and check over their taxpayer funded second homes once every five years whilst we meekly re-elect them. If we can be bothered to walk to the Polling station that is.

We should be calling them to proper account as an electorate far more than we do rather than unthinkingly toeing a party line. As Rockfreak says, albeit from a very different perspective, hopefully UKIP's recent successes are the start of that process.
Ooops Andy, mea culpa I forgot you had commented (can't think why - just call it chemo-brain, which oddly is a recognised condition & can last for years ... what did I hear you say, "Any old excuse"?!)
I couldn't agree more with your apathy comment, it really infuriates me that while all our loved and respected institutions are being chopped up & sold off, two-thirds of the electorate couldn't give a tinker's. Just wait until they have to pay to see a GP or get the medical treatments they need... sorry I'm about to rant so must stop there.
I'm well Andy, thanks for asking. My third annual review comes up next week so nerves are jangling slightly - every niggle causes a "What if... " moment, but largely I'm fine. And larger than I was. :lol:

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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:10 pm

IMHO Rockfreak has overlooked a mountain of facts. One of the big arguments of the non-traditional parties is the control exercised by Brussels and the ECB. and a wish to escape their control. OK some of them are beyond the pale in other areas. I live in a fanatically socialist area but all I hear is disquiet with Brussels - even socialists here want Brussels out (or, not actually said, controlled). They see Britain with a nice GNP growth whilst here growth is below zero and unemployment is rising thanks to Brussels and the ECB.*

We are facing a slight problem near here; some relative of one of the big wigs in Brussels is allergic to one of the ingredients of perfume so Brussels has decreed that the entire industry related to that entire class of ingredients (not just the specific ingredient) be closed down. That involves not only the farmers, the chemists, the manufacturers but also the town halls, those who supply the food to all those affected - 6 people for every one put out of work in the biggest industry in the region. In fact I suspect that they are bringing in a total ban on growing the various plants anywhere for any reason. They have already brought in regulations imposing huge costs on householders and communities Europewide - the cost to me so far has been about €8000 out of my pension and others have been harder hit (with traders doubling their prices in respect of compliance). It is Brussels who prevent the Portuguese selling 80% of their lemons, traders cannot sell bananas with more that a slight curve (it's not the supermarkets this time), .......
A friend living in Ulster was a professor at a university in the Irish Republic; under EU regulations he is exempt from all taxes from any country on his income purely because he works in a different country for a state organisation! Brussels is out of control and their people are living in taxfree luxury.

anniexf: whilst I hope your coming review is as good as the last one, I would point out that rockfreak didn't dispute my facts. (I did start off by saying that he and I appear to be diametrically opposed).

As for his latest contribution Rockfreak forgets that there is only one remaining tax haven which truly allows the hiding of income - and any UK bank seeing transfers to or from there is likely immediately to inform the police. Others may quietly act rather than exposing everything to the world. As for companies not paying UK tax, that is solely a result of the stupidity and exceptions included in the UK tax regime. He also seems to think it is perfectly acceptable to defraud the benefits system - perhaps a few of you agree that everyone should make false claims for benefits?

Apathy; I agree but who holds the whip hand? There was a case recently where someone didn't like the local Social services person so they simply took all his children away. We are in a state where any politician can do anything and get away with it; how many sitting MPs were guilty of fiddling expenses? What about the minister who was forced to resign for breaking the rules? He got a new cabinet post, broke the rules, resigned again and was promoted to Brussels; decency is beyond many in Westminster.
Reference was made to the UKIP candidate in Gravesend; an almost identical situation arose with a conservative candidate where I vote in the UK; he actually told the electorate not to vote for him but I think he still came second. I had been working with one of his opponents for 12 months who, unfortunately did not win so there is no apathy here.
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:31 pm

OK folks, let's wind up the Politics thread again. Working class northerner, grammar school boy, satirist and playwright Alan Bennett believes that the public schools should be gradually abolished and folded into a one-tier system. I know that CH is supposed to be a bit different but with increased numbers of fee-payers coming in, how long is that likely to last? And in any case, if the responses to this politics thread (and indeed other threads) are anything to go by, I'm not sure that ex-CH pupils are greatly different to the smug, assumptive products of Eton or Harrow. My eldest daughter went to a local comprehensive but she's sharper than some of you people when it comes to awareness of social problems and class divisions. Given that over 750 people have viewed the Politics thread since its inception it would be nice to get a few posts (friendly or hostile) from other than the regulars. In other words, don't assume that Sejintenej's latest exercise in unsubstantiated, scattergun sophistry closes off the argument. Please feel free to contribute. What about you, Geoffrey Cannon, for instance? By the way, talking of Alan Bennett, did anyone see the repeat of The History Boys on TV the other night? We had a couple of groping masters when I was at CH in the 50s but none that tried it on the back of a motor bike.

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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:40 pm

I don't agree with the total abolishment of public/private schools.

Yes - I did see 'The History Boys', for the first time, I hasten to add ! I thought it was brilliant.
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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:49 pm

Why not JR? Articulate your argument. Only 7% of children get to experience a public school education. That's not fair is it. Mind you, the latest book to come out on this subject, "Wounded Leaders" by psychiatrist Nick Duffell, claims that a public school education is a positive menace because it distorts the values and emotional development of our political leaders. And looking at today's Tory front bench you can see why. It doesn't have to be like that mind you; the leader of the most radical, people-friendly, progressive government since the war was a public schoolboy - Clem Attlee. And even the old grandees like Macmillan and Douglas Home would have baulked at the levels of unemployment and inequality we see today. Maybe everything's moved to the right and the public school products these days with it. What about a robust opinion from Spoony who I don't think has contributed to this thread yet. Today's Union organised anti-cuts march in London was large, loud, colourful and garnered more coverage on foreign media and social media than on the benighted mainstream UK channels. UK Uncut went along posing as rich tax avoiders. If nothing else you get to meet lots of people who don't believe everything they read in the Daily Mail, and you can bellow Tory Scum on passing Downing Street. Laugh if you like but it makes me feel a bit better.

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Re: Politics

Post by DavidRawlins » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:31 am

All power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The desire for power is a corrupt lust.

Discuss.
Col A 1946-1953

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Re: Politics

Post by Fjgrogan » Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:31 am

Rockfreak, you don't seem to be getting the message! In similar fashion to the average election, we seem to have one side (in this case one person) obviously itching for a fight; it doesn't seem to matter what the fight is about just as long as tempers can be raised for some reason or other. Meanwhile, the vast majority are either resisting the urge to become embroiled, or are too apathetic to bother replying. Now you are expanding into the thread about the CH Charge - please give up. Most of us have more interesting things to think about - even within the dwindling parameters of this forum, as Facebook gradually encroaches!
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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:32 pm

rockfreak wrote:Why not JR? Articulate your argument. Only 7% of children get to experience a public school education. That's not fair is it. Mind you, the latest book to come out on this subject, "Wounded Leaders" by psychiatrist Nick Duffell, claims that a public school education is a positive menace because it distorts the values and emotional development of our political leaders. And looking at today's Tory front bench you can see why. It doesn't have to be like that mind you; the leader of the most radical, people-friendly, progressive government since the war was a public schoolboy - Clem Attlee. And even the old grandees like Macmillan and Douglas Home would have baulked at the levels of unemployment and inequality we see today. Maybe everything's moved to the right and the public school products these days with it. What about a robust opinion from Spoony who I don't think has contributed to this thread yet. Today's Union organised anti-cuts march in London was large, loud, colourful and garnered more coverage on foreign media and social media than on the benighted mainstream UK channels. UK Uncut went along posing as rich tax avoiders. If nothing else you get to meet lots of people who don't believe everything they read in the Daily Mail, and you can bellow Tory Scum on passing Downing Street. Laugh if you like but it makes me feel a bit better.

Although my views tend to drift from left to extreme right, I do believe in 'freedom of choice'.

Why should a government, elected by the public, who then refuses to carry out the public wish be in complete control of how we educate our children ?
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:57 pm

"Freedom of choice" is the usual right-wing, rich person's get-out for the fact that they've got enough money to send their brats to a private school or, in the case of Christ's Hospital, that they've just been lucky. I'm not sure that boarding schools are a good choice anyway if it means you're going to produce the kind of people who graduate through the Bullingdon Club and into the top echelons of the Tory party. I still maintain my point - contested by one or two others - that some countries in developed western Europe have a much more egalitarian system of education and don't seem any the worse for it, socially or economically. Let me quote a bit from Alan Bennett's speech which was reprinted in the current London Review of Books: "Private education is not fair......and if their education ends without it dawning on them, then that education has been wasted".

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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:03 pm

Fjgrogan wrote:Rockfreak, you don't seem to be getting the message! In similar fashion to the average election, we seem to have one side (in this case one person) obviously itching for a fight; it doesn't seem to matter what the fight is about just as long as tempers can be raised for some reason or other. Meanwhile, the vast majority are either resisting the urge to become embroiled, or are too apathetic to bother replying. Now you are expanding into the thread about the CH Charge - please give up. Most of us have more interesting things to think about - even within the dwindling parameters of this forum, as Facebook gradually encroaches!
What could be more interesting than the times we live in and the world we want to pass on to future generations? Give up? That's exactly what these Tory ******** want us to do.

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Re: Politics

Post by rockfreak » Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:12 pm

DavidRawlins wrote:All power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The desire for power is a corrupt lust.

Discuss.
Absolutely, I agree. But the question today is Where does the power lie? This country might have had some semblance to a democracy years ago: today it's a corporate and financial oligarchy - and that's proving even harder to bring to account.

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Re: Politics

Post by Mid A 15 » Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:14 pm

I do find it ironic that "the left" are happy to advocate diversity until we reach the subject of education when they preach State indoctrination unless it is their own children involved of course!

The child of Harriett Harman and Jack Dromey traipsed across London to a grammar school in Orpington, Diane Abbott avoided the State system completely and sent her child to a private school and the Blair babes (children rather than female MPs) traipsed from North London to South West London to attend an eminent faith school. That's just three luminaries of the left who come to mind without thinking too hard.

I love Alan Bennett but he, and others like him, are simply advocating pulling the ladder back into the attic to prevent others joining them up there.

The gap between the richest and poorest grew to its greatest ever during 13 years of socialism under Anthony Blair and Gordon Brown.

Do as I say not as I do!
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