YELLOWS AND PINKS

[Foureyes]

Thanks for all the information which continues to flow in. You all probably know this better than I, but in case anyone doesn't, the photo above shows the Hall in the background, with a statue of a Bluecoat boy in a niche.That statue was originally at C.H. Ware which closed in 1761, although the statue was not brought to Hertford until 1873. There were some 98 Bluecoat schools, and, for reasons not entirely clear, virtually all of them had a statue of this nature over the main entrance (as here) or on the gateposts, again as at Hertford. I have located 50 such statues, all at the very least 200 years old, and they are very important as sources of historical information.
There are also, as I am sure you will all remember, two very striking statues of a girl in 17th century Housie uniform at Hertford and, with the benefit of hindsight, it is sad that one of them was not moved to Horsham, in 1985.
Again, many thanks for the info,
David

[Foureyes]

NEW THOUGHT
In the current girls' dress at Horsham, the junior girls (2nd Form-Little Erasmus (essentially ages 11-14)) wear yellow socks on all occasions, while senior girls (Upper Fourth to Grecians (i.e., 14-plus) wear either grey stockings or grey tights, except on special occasions when yellow socks form part of their "ceremonials".

Can anyone explain why, please? My understanding, but it is purely anecdotal, is that immediately following the move to Horsham all the girls involved were delighted to adopt full Housie uniform but for some reason they all took exception to the yellow stockings and the current position was reached as a compromise. As I say, this is anecdotal - can anyone give the proper story, please, including why yellow should be such a "no-no"?

David

[Kim2s70-77]

The Cherry red Sunday blazer was definitely pre 1970, because it was there when I arrived that year. I seem to remember being told that it was a colour that only CH or Royalty was permitted to wear. I do have to qualify that statement with a reminder that, at that time, I also believed there were Chocolate Bunnies.......!!

[icomefromalanddownunder]

The Cherry red Sunday blazer was definitely pre 1970, because it was there when I arrived that year. I seem to remember being told that it was a colour that only CH or Royalty was permitted to wear. I do have to qualify that statement with a reminder that, at that time, I also believed there were Chocolate Bunnies.......!!

I'm beginning to see a clue as to why the title of the thread is Yellows and Pinks: think of the red jackets worn by fox hunters, and known as pinks (after their manufacturer, I believe).

I would say that it was more of a case of only CH and Royalty being FORCED (rather than permitted) to wear the colour.

[anniexf]

In Summer 64 I was taken to Chelsea Flower Show by DR with the Head Girl. As we had tea there she mused that in our new grey pinafores we didn't look as if we were in uniform at all, and could possibly be taken for her daughters or nieces. It was very difficult to keep a straight face! For her to say that, the grey dresses must have been very new then, they may have come in that term, I can't remember.

Katharine, you've provided a clue about DR's character there. Is it possible that the reason you were elevated to the status of potential relative was that you were "nice" girls from "nice" families, e.g. clergy (C. of E., of course, no non-conformist trash!), or otherwise "respectable", and that's a reason why she couldn't empathise with ( and therefore tended to disregard) girls from social strata she wasn't familiar or comfortable with? My memories of her tend to support this theory (well they would, wouldn't they!) but I'd be interested to know if this rings a bell with anyone else.

[Fjgrogan]

Aha! Perhaps I never stood a chance because my father was 'in service'? He was chauffeur to a member of the City of London's Common Council, who was Chief Commoner the year that I started at Hertford; I was therefore allowed to visit the school when he was there as an invited guest on Speech Day the term before I was due to start. So my future colleagues at school first encountered me arriving in a chauffeur driven Bentley - I dread to think what they must have thought of me - until I opened my mouth and it was blatantly obvious that I was not top drawer - just decidedly Sarf London!

[Katharine]

In Summer 64 I was taken to Chelsea Flower Show by DR with the Head Girl. As we had tea there she mused that in our new grey pinafores we didn't look as if we were in uniform at all, and could possibly be taken for her daughters or nieces. It was very difficult to keep a straight face! For her to say that, the grey dresses must have been very new then, they may have come in that term, I can't remember.

Katharine, you've provided a clue about DR's character there. Is it possible that the reason you were elevated to the status of potential relative was that you were "nice" girls from "nice" families, e.g. clergy (C. of E., of course, no non-conformist trash!), or otherwise "respectable", and that's a reason why she couldn't empathise with ( and therefore tended to disregard) girls from social strata she wasn't familiar or comfortable with? My memories of her tend to support this theory (well they would, wouldn't they!) but I'd be interested to know if this rings a bell with anyone else.

Annie, I have never thought about it like that. The reason why I was chosen for the visit to Chelsea Flower Show was that the garden Hilary Evans & I shared always won the prize. I think we won almost every year I was at the school. (It was the one with the silver birch tree near the swings) I went with the HG one day, and Hilary went with whoever was the Senior Garden Rep or something (!) the following day. We were in LVI then, I can't remember why we didn't go together, which we would have preferred. I don't know whether DR went both days.

BTW both Hilary & I had brothers at Horsham, and my father and aunt were OBs to add to my status as a 'nice' girl.

[anniexf]

Lucky you Katharine, for being able to garden at CH! I longed to but always had to do some kind of sport. I remember MKP being very annoyed with me for not performing better at the hockey team trials in the autumn term of 1959. I didn't dare tell her that I couldn't wield my stick properly because I was trying to hold my blues up with my elbows - the elastic had gone & I hadn't had time to replace it! For that sin I was made goalkeeper. There were other transgressions against MKP's code that term, too. My hairstyle - she berated me for it during gym :" I don't like your coiffure, Ann Wilkinson!" and again during gym the day after I'd thrown up violently over the floor of Little Dorm because I hadn't woken up in time - "Even my little dog can get to the door!" I did vaguely wonder how she knew, and so quickly, but there were any number of people who'd have been only too happy to see me humiliated, at that time, including one ghastly little snob (and I still remember her name, should she appear here ) who said, haughtily, of my hair "You look like a teddy girl" Definitely low-life, me. No change there, then!

But I still think DR would have been delighted to count you a relative, Katharine!

[Angela Woodford]

We've strayed over into "DR" thread territory here, but -

Awful as my memories are of DR, I don't think family status made a lot of difference to our treatment. What DR liked was the brave honourable schoolgirl; above all, conformist and loyally determined to stick to the rules! The girl who worked hard and played hard with a sense of fair play all round! The girl who played her part in House, "maintained standards" and tried even harder when rebuked! Er, "taking it on the chin" when necessary. (That comment made my blood BOIL!)

All this sort of thing! Wackiness, originality, despair, disobedience, creativity, defiance, deception, noisiness and putting hands in pockets didn't really count as "maintaining standards". Certainly not running away, or jumping from a window. The reasons for perceived failure were never rationally discussed with us, AFAIK. Think of those awful House Interviews! Standing there, like some sort of captive in front of the seated DR! If DR just didn't think you were very worthwhile, you were labelled as useless to the end of your schooldays.

I don't think one's C of E ness made much difference, really. I remember her asking somebody if they were allowed to play cards at home - there must have been quite a lot of us South London evangelically-raised girls. She admitted Jasmin Ansar, a Muslim, and there were several Roman Catholic girls. Alex admitted to being an atheist, and DR didn't mind a bit. That counted as sticking to Alex's principles.

What made me furious was the rapid separation into 'A' and 'B' streams - a divisive and stupid policy. I resented the allocation of the School plum jobs to her Swans, and the provision, to those Swans, of privacy in their own flat. I still think this was an unfair demonstration of privilege and favouritism to those she had picked out from the 'A' stream at an early age.

Not fair, as I used to say throughout my CH days! I may have been labelled a failure myself, but even I had a sense of "fair". Just as much as any Swan!

Dear Moderator, transfer this to the DR thread if you prefer. Then back to the much appreciated analysis of the vagaries of our uniform!

[anniexf]

We've strayed over into "DR" thread territory here, but -

Alex admitted to being an atheist, and DR didn't mind a bit. That counted as sticking to Alex's principles.

Dear Moderator, transfer this to the DR thread if you prefer. Then back to the much appreciated analysis of the vagaries of our uniform!

One of 8's Mons, Marion Jones, came back in absolute fury from a session in which DR had criticised Marion's atheism to the extent that it was doubtful whether DR would support her application to Oxford. The way it came across was as a petty piece of blackmail. Fortunately Marion was very articulate & clear-thinking & wasn't a bit afraid of DR ( in fact ISTR she openly despised her) & went on to get an Exhibition at Somerville.

End of DR-bashing - for now.

Re the coatfrocks and mustard dresses: does anyone remember having to sew dress shields into them at the begining of term? There were no deodorants permitted, or even available, AFAIR; the nearest we got to fragrant personal hygiene was scented talc & shampoo!

[midget]

Scented talc? No such luck!

[englishangel]

Re the coatfrocks and mustard dresses: does anyone remember having to sew dress shields into them at the begining of term? There were no deodorants permitted, or even available, AFAIR; the nearest we got to fragrant personal hygiene was scented talc & shampoo!

I think Katharine further up mentioned dress shields and we were certainly still using them in 1972 (probably 1985 too - maria?) and many moons ago I said you can still buy them in John Lewis.

Regarding scented shampoo, in our era it was some green stuff called Polyherb which looked like pond algae and smelled somewhere between the pond and a compost heap. It made our hair very shiny though.

[icomefromalanddownunder]

Re the coatfrocks and mustard dresses: does anyone remember having to sew dress shields into them at the begining of term? There were no deodorants permitted, or even available, AFAIR; the nearest we got to fragrant personal hygiene was scented talc & shampoo!

It was such memories that triggered me to begin the Hertford Hygiene thread

[anniexf]

Re the coatfrocks and mustard dresses: does anyone remember having to sew dress shields into them at the begining of term? There were no deodorants permitted, or even available, AFAIR; the nearest we got to fragrant personal hygiene was scented talc & shampoo!

It was such memories that triggered me to begin the Hertford Hygiene thread

Thanks, Caroline - I've just looked at your first post on that thread. What odorous memories we have! I do remember another awful pong, too - the cleaning of our tunics with a mixture of meths and ammonia, using nail brushes ( or was it scrubbing-brushes?). 8's dayroom tables were covered with thick cloths; I don't recall us getting any protection from the fumes though!

Back to uniform: did we wear vests in winter? I can't for the life of me remember now, and these days schoolchildren don't seem to. The changeover from winter to summer uniform, and vice-versa, was according to the whim of the Ward Mistress in my day. In 8's we were never first into dresses & socks even when it was sweltering. Mrs. Coveney always seemed to wait until three or four other Ward Mistresses had given the go-ahead to theirs. Perhaps it was a W-M heirarchy thing?

[MKM]

Definitely vests in winter in my time (1965-1972) and maybe in summer too.