HUSBAND APPEAL ??

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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DazedandConfused
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by DazedandConfused »

I assume that the restrictions are around protecting the anonymity of the victim?
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J.R.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by J.R. »

Husband has today been refused Leave to Appeal.

There are no more avenues of appeal left for him.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.
DazedandConfused
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by DazedandConfused »

Great news. Thanks for the update.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by michael scuffil »

DazedandConfused wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 pm Great news. Thanks for the update.
Why is it 'great news'? It is neither good nor bad, just news. If serious judicial opinion had allowed the appeal, it would have meant they considered there was a prima facie case for an appeal. That is not 'bad news'. It is justice taking its course. Mutatis mutandis the opposite.
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michael scuffil
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by michael scuffil »

sejintenej wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:45 am
michael scuffil wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:20 am In case you want to know why I think the English legal system is not 'the best':

1. it sends far too many people to prison
2. the accusatorial system does not allow the courts to conduct their own inquiries (defence and prosecution can agree -- tacitly or explicitly -- to omit matters of public interest)
3. it has no time limits on prosecutions
4. it allows children to be formally prosecuted
5. it allows accused persons (or even mere suspects) to be named publicly before they are convicted
6. it does not allow victims of crimes against the person (or their families, in homicide cases) to be formally represented in criminal proceedings
I agree with you on no 2.
1. As for sending too many to prison perhaps it is the wrong people who get sent down - I cite drug addicts and mental cases as examples. OTOH far too many criminals are not sent to prison when the general ppopulation needs to be protected from them
3 If you commit a crime then you should be tried for that even if the evidence takes years to compile. Otherwise should the period be 1589 days and you get off scot free after 1590 days? All you have to do is live abroad outside UK influence for the required period.That is IMHO stupid!
5. Naming the accused allows for further evidence to surface as in the current CH master cases.
6. Victims are naturally biased and the whole basis of the justice system is to screen out any form of bias. Victims are allowed to influence the punishment after a guilty verdict by stating how they have been affected by the crims.

As for the German system I have seen cases where national socialists in the 1990s were allowed to get away with openly anti-Jew actions almost scot free - in one case in Frankfurt it went to three different courts before a "satisfactory" verdict was reached
Re 1. Not just the wrong people, but too many. Britain's prison rate is easily the highest in Europe, but its crime rate is not the lowest.
Re 3. It is hardly ever a case of not being able to get the evidence on time. In most countries, the limitation period is approximately the same as the maximum sentence for the offence (i.e. quite long in any serious case). The rationale is to stop the prosecution of cold cases, where there is no public interest and the alleged offender is no longer the same person.
Re 5. Precisely. But that is not helpful. More accusations do not prove the accused's guilt of the offence he has actually been charged with. See Arthur Miller's 'The Crucible'. That is how the witch trials worked.
Re 6. I said the victims should be legally represented at the trial, not that they should conduct prosecutions. The lawyer is briefed to put their specific point of view, by questioning witnesses and making a closing speech to the court.
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DazedandConfused
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by DazedandConfused »

michael scuffil wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:32 pm
DazedandConfused wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 pm Great news. Thanks for the update.
Why is it 'great news'? It is neither good nor bad, just news. If serious judicial opinion had allowed the appeal, it would have meant they considered there was a prima facie case for an appeal. That is not 'bad news'. It is justice taking its course. Mutatis mutandis the opposite.
It’s great news that the judgement that was made was sound and that the victim isn’t going to be put through the ordeal of an appeal.
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J.R.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by J.R. »

There is a piece on The Argus website this evening.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by peter2095 »

If it takes 87 muscles to frown, if i frown throughout the day, can that count towards my daily work out?
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by LHA »

Does anyone have any "notes from Court"?
Andrew Husband may never see freedom again, given his age.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by michael scuffil »

LHA wrote: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:01 pm Does anyone have any "notes from Court"?
Andrew Husband may never see freedom again, given his age.
That is unlikely. He doesn't have a life sentence, and in any case almost no one dies in prison of old age because prisons don't have the facilities to provide expensive end-of-life care. And unlike Worboys (who's relatively young), no one will be able to say of Husband in his late 70s that he still represents a danger to the public.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by michael scuffil »

DazedandConfused wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:54 pm
michael scuffil wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:32 pm
DazedandConfused wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:07 pm Great news. Thanks for the update.
Why is it 'great news'? It is neither good nor bad, just news. If serious judicial opinion had allowed the appeal, it would have meant they considered there was a prima facie case for an appeal. That is not 'bad news'. It is justice taking its course. Mutatis mutandis the opposite.
It’s great news that the judgement that was made was sound and that the victim isn’t going to be put through the ordeal of an appeal.
Why should the appeal be an ordeal for the victim? He was seeking leave to appeal against sentence, not conviction. That is a purely technical hearing.
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DazedandConfused
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by DazedandConfused »

michael scuffil wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:19 am
DazedandConfused wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:54 pm
michael scuffil wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:32 pm

Why is it 'great news'? It is neither good nor bad, just news. If serious judicial opinion had allowed the appeal, it would have meant they considered there was a prima facie case for an appeal. That is not 'bad news'. It is justice taking its course. Mutatis mutandis the opposite.
It’s great news that the judgement that was made was sound and that the victim isn’t going to be put through the ordeal of an appeal.
Why should the appeal be an ordeal for the victim? He was seeking leave to appeal against sentence, not conviction. That is a purely technical hearing.
You are shockingly lacking in empathy. I’m can imagine a reduced sentence would be upsetting even if the concivtion weren’t overturned.
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by charlesr »

DazedandConfused wrote:
michael scuffil wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:19 am
DazedandConfused wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:54 pm It’s great news that the judgement that was made was sound and that the victim isn’t going to be put through the ordeal of an appeal.
Why should the appeal be an ordeal for the victim? He was seeking leave to appeal against sentence, not conviction. That is a purely technical hearing.
You are shockingly lacking in empathy. I’m can imagine a reduced sentence would be upsetting even if the concivtion weren’t overturned.
That's the outcome being upsetting, not the process of the appeal. Which is what I *think* Michael may have meant.

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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by michael scuffil »

Look, I have said in other posts that I think victims ought, in cases of crimes against the person, be formally legally represented at all stages of the case against the accused. It is widely reported that in the English system, where they are not, victims often feel let down or left out.

However, this is not the same thing as the law taking its course. Leave to appeal against sentence in this case was always unlikely, and a reduction in sentence on appeal (had leave been granted) was unlikelier still. It goes without saying that *any* victim will find a reduction in sentence upsetting, especially if he/she does not feel his/her situation has been taken properly into account. But that is not my point, which is that the rule of law is paramount. If Husband was denied leave to appeal, this represents a decision by three experienced judges who always have to take into account the wider public interest. The same would have been true if he *had* been granted it. Very obviously the victim will find denial of leave to appeal 'great news', a view that might be shared in their hearts by those who know her or the perpetrator. That is natural, and quite proper.

I simply think that subjective comment in public forums on judicial matters in particular cases, especially on a technical issue, is inappropriate.
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Bishbashbosh
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Re: HUSBAND APPEAL ??

Post by Bishbashbosh »

michael scuffil wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:04 am Look, I have said in other posts that I think victims ought, in cases of crimes against the person, be formally legally represented at all stages of the case against the accused. It is widely reported that in the English system, where they are not, victims often feel let down or left out.

However, this is not the same thing as the law taking its course. Leave to appeal against sentence in this case was always unlikely, and a reduction in sentence on appeal (had leave been granted) was unlikelier still. It goes without saying that *any* victim will find a reduction in sentence upsetting, especially if he/she does not feel his/her situation has been taken properly into account. But that is not my point, which is that the rule of law is paramount. If Husband was denied leave to appeal, this represents a decision by three experienced judges who always have to take into account the wider public interest. The same would have been true if he *had* been granted it. Very obviously the victim will find denial of leave to appeal 'great news', a view that might be shared in their hearts by those who know her or the perpetrator. That is natural, and quite proper.

I simply think that subjective comment in public forums on judicial matters in particular cases, especially on a technical issue, is inappropriate.
Whilst I don't wholly disagree with your sentiment, that is neither the argument you initially made, nor its manner. What you did was chime in with an unemotional, unempathic load of bs. This isn't court. This is a public forum, revolving around an emotive, incredibly serious issue. People can and will post their emotional responses. Your inital post was not helpful or constructive, just nitpicking and difficult. Also, if you cannot understand how the simple fact of an appeal itself could be traumatising for a victim (partocularly in a case of this nature), I would politely suggest shutting up.

Also, in a public forum, there isn't any definitive rule of propriety. With the 2 exceptions of legality, and forum rules. This is, whether you like it or not, a PUBLIC forum. People will post emotively on an emotive subject. If you don't like it well, that's just tough.
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