Riots, London and Elsewhere

[J.R.]

It may well be a figment of my distorted memory, but maybe JR can confirm.
I seem to remember a black and white film shown to the CCF in the Science Lecture Theatre, which showed crowd control, army style, in a very obvious Indian Continent situation, where the person crossing the imaginary line, was indeed shot.
It may well have been acted but seemed pretty real to me.

Maybe they should take it around the schools with the message, "Keep going they way you are and there are no guarantees that this will not happen!"

Can't say I recall the film, John, though obviously, I had loads of that sort of training after leaving school, which came in handy for the 'Mods & Rockers' troubles on Box Hill in the late 60's. Incidently, in one squirmish near the summit, I was the first to be bitten by a police dog, (a Met Police dog, I hasten to add !)

[Angela Woodford]

Were you a Mod or a Rocker, JR?

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

It may well be a figment of my distorted memory, but maybe JR can confirm.
I seem to remember a black and white film shown to the CCF in the Science Lecture Theatre, which showed crowd control, army style, in a very obvious Indian Continent situation, where the person crossing the imaginary line, was indeed shot.
It may well have been acted but seemed pretty real to me.

Maybe they should take it around the schools with the message, "Keep going they way you are and there are no guarantees that this will not happen!"

Can't say I recall the film, John, though obviously, I had loads of that sort of training after leaving school, which came in handy for the 'Mods & Rockers' troubles on Box Hill in the late 60's. Incidently, in one squirmish near the summit, I was the first to be bitten by a police dog, (a Met Police dog, I hasten to add !)

A MET police dog ?

That would never have happened with a CITY dog ----- trained not to attack Superior Persons, such as Old Blues !

My Father (City Police) said that it was being a cross between a Guardsman on Public Duties, and a Night Watchman !!!

[jhopgood]

It may well be a figment of my distorted memory, but maybe JR can confirm.
I seem to remember a black and white film shown to the CCF in the Science Lecture Theatre, which showed crowd control, army style, in a very obvious Indian Continent situation, where the person crossing the imaginary line, was indeed shot.
It may well have been acted but seemed pretty real to me.

Maybe they should take it around the schools with the message, "Keep going they way you are and there are no guarantees that this will not happen!"

Can't say I recall the film, John, though obviously, I had loads of that sort of training after leaving school, which came in handy for the 'Mods & Rockers' troubles on Box Hill in the late 60's. Incidentally, in one skirmish near the summit, I was the first to be bitten by a police dog, (a Met Police dog, I hasten to add !)

Reminds me of the time in Amsterdam when I parked my car opposite a squatter's house, just before they were evicted. (I later realised why there was always parking available on that road).
In the ensuing riot, cars set alight, cobble stones torn up etc, the police blocked off a road with a policeman with a dog in the middle and policemen either side. A rioter decided to try and cycle past, at which point the dog handler swung his truncheon at the cyclist. There was much mirth as the dog handler's truncheon arm was attacked by his dog and he rushed off down the road with the dog appearing to think it was a game.
Those same riots were reported on Russian TV, and my sister-in-law, who was studying there at the time, wrote to us to ask if we had been affected by the demonstrations against the cruise missiles.
When I eventually got to my car, it was unscratched as it was between two riot vans. The drive out was interesting as the road had been torn up and there were burning cars and tires all over the place. The rioters just let me through.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

It is interesting for me to remember Stockwell in the 30s ---

Although a tough "Coster Area" , the inhabitants were conservative (With a small C !) and activities which were considered "Anti Social" tended to be dealt with, in the Community.
"Local "Burglary, if detected, would result in reasonable injuries, inflicted by the locals.
Of course, Burglary, committed outside the area was "None of our business" !
This conservative attitude,also applied elsewhere----

MY Uncle, by Marriage, was a Prison Officer, and told me that real "Nasties" such as Paedophiles, arriving in Prison, would find that the Officer would say "I'm just going down the corridor --- be good chaps" --- and return to arrange for the victim to be taken to the Prison Hospital !

Couldn't happen nowadays -- could it --- Human rights ?

[sejintenej]

I was the first to be bitten by a police dog, (a Met Police dog, I hasten to add !)

A MET police dog ?

That would never have happened with a CITY dog ----- trained not to attack Superior Persons, such as Old Blues !

My Father (City Police) said that it was being a cross between a Guardsman on Public Duties, and a Night Watchman !!!

Too right. On one occasion, a Saturday, a young City dog in training was being taken up City Road by his handler - the first time out without the experienced dog about to be retired. This pup suddenly broke loose and dashed across the street in front of an oncoming car. Bad enough, but it then picked up a toddler and carried him off the street completely uninjured. Definitely intelligent; his predecessor was supposed to be giving one of the normal public demonstrations but decided parts of it were 'old hat' and merely bypassed them.

[DavidRawlins]

Society is going to have to pay for the current problems for a long time.
Rioting and looting are both to be condemmed.
Looting. The looters last week took fairly low cost items; not like the bankers who took vast amounts and have brought the nation near collapse. MPs have taken large amounts in expenses. Hedge fund managers and investors have reduced many companies to near collapse as the value has been removed from the companies.
If one of last weeks looters received a six month sentence for stealing a bottle of water, what is the tariff for a banker?
The physical and monetary damage caused by the rioters will soon be settled. How long will it take to settle the bills caused by those who have taken so much?

[Angela Woodford]

Very good points, David!

[J.R.]

It is interesting for me to remember Stockwell in the 30s ---

Although a tough "Coster Area" , the inhabitants were conservative (With a small C !) and activities which were considered "Anti Social" tended to be dealt with, in the Community.
"Local "Burglary, if detected, would result in reasonable injuries, inflicted by the locals.
Of course, Burglary, committed outside the area was "None of our business" !
This conservative attitude,also applied elsewhere----

MY Uncle, by Marriage, was a Prison Officer, and told me that real "Nasties" such as Paedophiles, arriving in Prison, would find that the Officer would say "I'm just going down the corridor --- be good chaps" --- and return to arrange for the victim to be taken to the Prison Hospital !

Couldn't happen nowadays -- could it --- Human rights ?

Don't you believe it !!

[jhopgood]

Society is going to have to pay for the current problems for a long time.
Rioting and looting are both to be condemned.
Looting. The looters last week took fairly low cost items; not like the bankers who took vast amounts and have brought the nation near collapse. MPs have taken large amounts in expenses. Hedge fund managers and investors have reduced many companies to near collapse as the value has been removed from the companies.
If one of last weeks looters received a six month sentence for stealing a bottle of water, what is the tariff for a banker?
The physical and monetary damage caused by the rioters will soon be settled. How long will it take to settle the bills caused by those who have taken so much?

I don't find it quite as simple as you do.
Whilst I agree that a few people working in banks made fortunes by taking risks that eventually went wrong, they were, for the most part, working within the law. For them to make their "scandalous" bonuses, they had to make money for their employers, who were ultimately making money for their shareholders, many of whom were pension funds. No-one is going to complain if your investment makes a good return. The problem is related to the"uncontrolled" risks they took, and here the authorities should have had a more hands on role.
It gets quite complicated with everyone pointing the finger elsewhere.
What is not complicated is that blatantly breaking and entering, and then stealing, is against the law that everyone understands and knows. You can finger point at lack of parental guidance etc, all you like, but at least in those circumstances, the law is clear and the prescribed punishment should be imposed.
I find it difficult to relate the two, since I feel that the root of the problem is current society's desire for "something for nothing".

[anniexf]

Society is going to have to pay for the current problems for a long time.
Rioting and looting are both to be condemned.
Looting. The looters last week took fairly low cost items; not like the bankers who took vast amounts and have brought the nation near collapse. MPs have taken large amounts in expenses. Hedge fund managers and investors have reduced many companies to near collapse as the value has been removed from the companies.
If one of last weeks looters received a six month sentence for stealing a bottle of water, what is the tariff for a banker?
The physical and monetary damage caused by the rioters will soon be settled. How long will it take to settle the bills caused by those who have taken so much?

I find it difficult to relate the two, since I feel that the root of the problem is current society's desire for "something for nothing".

I have more sympathy with David's view than with John's. Those bankers who caused near chaos knew the difference between risk and irresponsibility, but were driven by greed to the point where they were prepared to cheat their own investors by selling products that were always destined to lose money - often playing one set of investors off against another. That is downright immoral.
This morning Ian Duncan Smith had the nerve to blame greed, among other things, for the lootings, blithely overlooking the scandal of MPs' expenses. So that wasn't greed? What was it, entitlement? A nod and a wink? You steal with a suit on, you're not a thief?
This Government is paying £100 m a year- yes, one hundred million pounds - to a French company, Atos Healthcare, to assess disabled people's right to continued benefits. Twelve of its doctors are allegedly being investigated for "improper treatment" of vulnerable people. A barrister suffering from cancer & lymphoma, & unable to practise, was roughly examined by having her legs moved even though she had warned the doctor it would cause her pain. Other doctors were "not licensed to practise in the UK", or were on "sick leave" from their UK posts, and worst of all, nurses and physiotherapists were being used to make the assessments.
If this is not a clear case of legalised theft, I don't know what is. Government needs to be squeaky clean before it presumes to judge the people it is elected to serve. So far, we've had mere posturing and bad-mouthing. It all stinks.

That's my two penn'orth.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

Speaking from a Liberal Family (Since we were Whigs !) I would not add "Two- pennorth Worth" ----- I would make it Twenty Guineas !!

I am disgusted by the way my Party has swallowed many of it's principles, in order to achieve "Government" in which it seems to have little influence.

If I had wanted a Conservative Government ------ I would have VOTED Conservative !!!

GGRRRR !

[anniexf]

Another ha'porth:

It's my belief that successive Governments of whatever hue must take a lot of the blame if society really is breaking down. Remind me, which PM didn't believe that there is such a thing as "society", then proceeded to brutally demolish whole communities because these horrid common people were getting too much power - ideas above their station, threatening the status quo? Which PM unleashed the dog-eat-dog ideology of "Market Forces" which resulted in sky-high interest rates, then mass unemployment and thousands (including the young couple and their two little ones who lived next door to me) losing their homes? And don't even get me started on Blair & his cronies!

The reality is that society as Cameron's lot fondly believe it ought to be started disintegrating after WW1, when horrid common people started thinking for themselves & rejected the kind of serfdom their "betters" meant by "society". Since then' we've had "Government by Ideology", which has resulted in each successive Administration seeking to dilute or abolish and replace every reform by the previous one. That has had dreadful effects on massive areas like Education, Health and Welfare. Hardly surprising, then, if "society" is messed up and confused, and young people are so suspicious that they become alienated from the whole process. ( No, I'm not seeking to justify rioting & looting at all, it's criminal).

There. that was another tuppence worth really, but I feel better for having got it off my chest. I'm so ANGRY at the HYPOCRISY and DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!

[marty]

I dislike the simplistic "it's the bankers' fault" approach to the current economic ills. Sure, there are some rogues within the banking sector but laying all of the blame at their door is not right. Bankers are there to make money and that's what they did. They are not there to run the economy. That's the government's job.

There are many contributing factors to our current situation, and not factoring in the unarguable fact that Labour overspent WAY TOO MUCH would be wrong.

For example, as of June last year the UK had spent over £9 billion on the Iraq war. £9 billion!!!!! Why that is never mentioned is beyond me. Tony Blair taking us into Iraq is FAR more shameful than anything the bankers have done.

Or you could add in Gordon Brown's selling off of 60% of our gold reserves at $275 an ounce. Gold is currently worth $1746 an ounce. Brown lost this country billions of £££.

[anniexf]

An interesting article from this afternoon here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/law-rich-poor/16014