Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

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sejintenej
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Re: Should Christ’s Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by sejintenej » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:09 pm

J.R. wrote:
rockfreak wrote:Why is anyone still under the assumption that this is a Christian country? Our heritage comes not from Christianity but from the 18th century European humanist enlightenment. Christianity was a pretty gruesome affair until then. Witchcraft and heresy trials, Old Testament fire and brimstone from the pulpit, being fined if you failed to attend church. As Kenneth Clark observed in his memorable Civilisation series on TV all those years ago - after the barbaric wars of religion in the 16th and 17th centuries, people were ready for a bit of peace and quiet. Voltaire et al promoted natural law, natural justice and a greater degree of tolerance of speech and action (and indeed of worship if that's what you wanted). The free speech bit is enshrined to this day in the libel law that says, generally, that there is no libel of a group and that robust comment and even mockery can be justified by the get-out of "fair comment on a matter of public interest". From Denmark came the cartoon of the prophet Mohammed: from the middle-east came the threat to kill the cartoonist. Theocratic states have almost always restricted speech and action. Developed western Europe is a bastion of many different freedoms that we now take for granted. Giles Fraser said that the modern day state-attached Anglican church, by taking God out of religion, had inoculated this country against the genie of religious fanaticism which has now lain dormant for centuries. So when you look at the modern day gentle, liberal, dogma-lite English Anglican church, what you're actually seeing is a church that has learned to wear enlightenment clothes while singing All Things Bright and Beautiful.

Just to get you going again, Freaky.....

We are a Monachy. with the Queen as head of the Church of England.

No, I'm NOT against any other religions. I just don't want them trying to convert me and I wish they would realise where they have chosen to live....

"When in Rome, do as......."
John, you have just got yourself on the Sunni death list; thou shalt become a Muslim or .......... We wish for England to be the new Jerusalem which is currently about half Jewish and half Muslim so forget Rome.
As for HM, she is C of E °° and as you are probably aware, Catholicism is actually illegal because they have refused to obey UK registration law. That is why that faith does not own any assets in the UK - not cathedrals nor churches nor (in theory) bank accounts. It is only in recent years that they have taken to wearing dog collars outside their churches; Mr Plod can still arrest them if they do.
Bible translation.

°° incidentally the Royal Family does not use the usual Bible translation

After stating stated the law, as you are well aware, the authorities flout the law every single day. Judges FAIL in their duty to bind over those found not guilty in court. A senior plod opined that the average person breaks 30 laws (including byelaws) before they get to the office in the morning.

Who arranged the 1953 Coronation, the recent 50th anniversary celebrations? Prominent catholics who no longer need to hide in Priest Holes

As for CH being / not being a "faith school" at least they try to imbue the concept of some faith. I was recently reading an argument about the American Declaration of Independence and the Masons behind it. The argument is that Masons know without doubt that they will have to face a higher Judge when they die so on this earth they will control their actions (an athiest has no such fears). Argue.
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Re: Should Christ’s Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by J.R. » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:42 pm

Nice one David !

I await 'Freaky's' response with interest.

Just for the record, I refused to enter a Catholic church until the death of my wifes Grand-parents funerals, and then only out of respect. Since then, only once for yet another funeral of a very dear friend.

As for being on a Sunni death list.... 'Look at my face. Am I bovvered ??'

Come the Ukip revolution................
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Re: Should Christ’s Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by rockfreak » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:47 pm

I've never understood what people mean by Faith. Faith in what? Resurrections? Virgin births? No evolutionary biologist or scientist has seriously challenged Darwin and all the findings have either endorsed or refined him. When opinion pollsters ask people whether they are Christian or not they never ask the follow-up questions. If they were to press them on the dogma many interviewees would then start to back away and it would probably come down in the end to a vague feeling that they think that St Francis was rather a good chap and wouldn't it be nice if we were all like him - although if we were then to suggest that they take off their clothes, don sackcloth and give all their possessions away, they might not be too keen about that. The very idea of a faith is that you have to believe in it to achieve salvation; otherwise you are just left with a set of rules and ethics that are largely common sense anyway. Clearly it's not in anyone's interest for us to be murdering or robbing each other, bearing false witness is covered by our libel laws, and even in these days when divorce is more commonplace it's still a bit frowned on to covet thy neighbour's wife. The only thing that has changed perhaps is that with the advent of gay lib it's now permissible to covet they neighbour's ass. Whatever it says on the tin about CH or the wider community being Christian, how many people actually seriously subscribe to these dogmas in this day and age?

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by anniexf » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:10 pm

rockfreak wrote:I've never understood what people mean by Faith. Faith in what? Resurrections? Virgin births? No evolutionary biologist or scientist has seriously challenged Darwin and all the findings have either endorsed or refined him. When opinion pollsters ask people whether they are Christian or not they never ask the follow-up questions. If they were to press them on the dogma many interviewees would then start to back away and it would probably come down in the end to a vague feeling that they think that St Francis was rather a good chap and wouldn't it be nice if we were all like him - although if we were then to suggest that they take off their clothes, don sackcloth and give all their possessions away, they might not be too keen about that. The very idea of a faith is that you have to believe in it to achieve salvation; otherwise you are just left with a set of rules and ethics that are largely common sense anyway. Clearly it's not in anyone's interest for us to be murdering or robbing each other, bearing false witness is covered by our libel laws, and even in these days when divorce is more commonplace it's still a bit frowned on to covet thy neighbour's wife. The only thing that has changed perhaps is that with the advent of gay lib it's now permissible to covet they neighbour's ass. Whatever it says on the tin about CH or the wider community being Christian, how many people actually seriously subscribe to these dogmas in this day and age?
Well Rockfreak, I can't answer your last question but I can tell you about a case in point - my daughter. She went to a State comp., ( no way would I consider Hertford for her after my own experiences there, although as a working single parent the boarding aspect would have been useful to me), thence to Oxford and a First in Biology. The only " religion" she got with me was occasional Church Parade with the Brownies. Then in her thirties, with a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology, she became a Christian. Her church is a traditional CofE with a vibrant congregation. She still has doubts about her faith but not enough to dissuade her. She has been managing a Trussell Trust Food Bank for some time (putting in far more hours than she's paid - minimum wage - for, e.g. the recent Tesco 3-day collection ) - Christianity in action .
So, I think your rather sweeping generalisation (and somewhat sneery, if I may say so - have you met any real Christians recently?) is way out. There are several millions in the UK doing their best to live as Christ indicated - probably unsuccessfully and pointlessly, by your criteria.
I don't claim to be a Christian myself, nor even a fellow-traveller, but I can't stand by and let you get away with such a cynical dismissal of perfectly decent people on the grounds that what they believe may be sheer fantasy. In fact what they believe helps to keep communities and individuals not only alive, but with a little hope for the future and a belief that there are some "good" people about, who will do something for no obvious reward. Not even Brownie points.

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by rockfreak » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:56 pm

Not intending to sneer at anyone, Annie, merely a broader point about the nature of faith. The sad fact is that years ago we wouldn't have needed the Trussell Trust, since the government would have provided a safety net. America is the world's HQ of faith and volunteer provision, but it's also the richest country in the world and one of the most unequal in the developed world. Apologies to you and your daughter for the offence.

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Re: Should Christ’s Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by sejintenej » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:53 am

rockfreak wrote:I've never understood what people mean by Faith.
Go back to my post about the Masons who governed early America. Doesn't matter if you believe in Allah and the 40 virgins or Thor or Yahveh or the Hindu gods.
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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by Avon » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:05 am

If CH is going to stop being 'religious' it could also cash in the 'royal' nonsense too. That just leaves 'ancient' which is pretty inescapable.

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by LongGone » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:25 am

While no one would ever accuse me of supporting religion, the idea that the 'religious' component in the original charter should be ignored leaves it open to ignore the 'charitable' charge as well.
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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by Avon » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:27 pm

LongGone wrote:While no one would ever accuse me of supporting religion, the idea that the 'religious' component in the original charter should be ignored leaves it open to ignore the 'charitable' charge as well.
Well that's going down the Swanee too. CH is going to become like Cranleigh.

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by J.R. » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:33 pm

Avon wrote:
LongGone wrote:While no one would ever accuse me of supporting religion, the idea that the 'religious' component in the original charter should be ignored leaves it open to ignore the 'charitable' charge as well.
Well that's going down the Swanee too. CH is going to become like Cranleigh.


Maybe modern educators see that as the way forward. Personally, I don't think so !!
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by rockfreak » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:54 pm

Avon wrote:If CH is going to stop being 'religious' it could also cash in the 'royal' nonsense too. That just leaves 'ancient' which is pretty inescapable.
Whenever I think of the royals I think of Roy Hattersley ( a republican) who said that he had nothing against the royal family personally, what he objected to was their ability to turn people's brains to jelly.

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by DavidRawlins » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:34 pm

It is an interesting fact that most countries, when they cease to be a monarchy, end up as a dictatorship. We may have started the trend with Cromwell, the French had one; one can add Germany, Greece,Spain, Portugal, Russia, China etc.
To my mind , this is a good arguement for keeping the royal family, illogical though it might be. Better the devil you know......
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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by rockfreak » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:40 pm

DavidRawlins wrote:It is an interesting fact that most countries, when they cease to be a monarchy, end up as a dictatorship. We may have started the trend with Cromwell, the French had one; one can add Germany, Greece,Spain, Portugal, Russia, China etc.
To my mind , this is a good arguement for keeping the royal family, illogical though it might be. Better the devil you know......
You've missed the biggest one. America; would they still want our monarchy? Whatever upheavals countries go through after the fall of a monarchy, you have to look at what happened later. Would the French want Louis and Marie Antoinette back? Would we want Charles 1 back? Would Russia want the Romanovs back? Our monarchy is relatively benign, they are only really a titular monarchy. In that respect I don't have too much of a problem with them - apart from the allegation that they employ staff at Buck House on zero hours contracts. A sad comment that Friedmanite business practices creep in everywhere.

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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by postwarblue » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:00 pm

Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.
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Re: Should Christ's Hospital Stop Being a Faith School?

Post by J.R. » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:24 pm

postwarblue wrote:Look at some of the specimens that America has lately (since Eisenhower) thrown up in the way of a President.

Quite so !!
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