Corporal Punishment......

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J.R.
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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by J.R. » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:17 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
(Your reveille wasn't loud enough to reach Thornton, though I heard about it.)
It certainly reached R.A.H. !

His bedroom was only a few feet from our bugles !
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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by CHAZ » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:08 pm

I think corporal punishment had pretty much died out in the late 70s-80s though I do remember once in LHA being "sent down" and being "cracked" by Spider maddren. This was a shoe and quite frankly a big joke. In PeB I don't think JED punished anyone in this fashion...but then again the Child Act wasn't far away so power moved from the staff to the pupils...
too bad in soem respects.
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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by J.R. » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:14 pm

I quite agree, Chaz !
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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by huntertitus » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:15 am

J.R. wrote:
Great days ! I have absolutely no problem with corporal punishment.
I had to punish one of my sons who had been beastly and told him that there would be no television,computer games, and that his playstation would also be confiscated for a week

He looked at me in HORROR and said "Please Daddy that's too harsh, why can't you just beat me? You can beat me as hard as you like but please don't take away my screens for a whole week!"

It was extremely hard to keep a straight face

Because at his age and in his place I may well have begged using the same words!!!

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by DavebytheSea » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:29 pm

Hmmmm ......

I think my mind has changed on this. As one who was rarely beaten at CH - there were a few times ...... once in Prep B by Mr Keep in common with 29 others during rest time in the dormitory (reported elsewhere in the forum) - I also remember asking Arthur Rider for the slipper in lieu of some other curtailment or other. For the record, he refused and burst out laughing as, unbeknown to me, he was entertaining my parents at the time, who must have heard the entire exchange at the study door. I too believed in a quick application of a slipper or some such as a quick redress.

However, shortly after leaving school, I began to examine the logic of violence ..... and I have written extensively about this elsewhere on the forum. I gradually became aware that what physical violence actually taught was that when reason fails, force is justified. This of course is the very justification used by tyrants down the ages - from Nero to Hitler and Mugabe. I vowed that, if possible, I would refrain from the use of corporal punishment both in respect of my own children and those whom I taught in my early years as a Grammar School teacher when beating was still common. I almost succeeded - I never beat a pupil and only once struck Jonathan in anger, tho' that was no formal beating - mere loss of control!

In respect of others, I tried not to be judgemental. Indeed when my children were young, I used to advise their teachers that while I never hit them myself, I would fully understand if others did. I don't think any of my kids were ever punished corporally while at school but then, on the whole, they were always considered models of excellent behaviour (tho' Jonathan did acquire something of a reputation at CH where he transferred at 16)

Today, we must all accept that times have changed. I do not believe now that corporal punishment can ever be justified or is ever sensible. The distressing thing is that many of us parents do not know what to substitute for it. However, Huntertitus has hinted at the solution. Phones, the internet (including msn), and ipods are all still largely under parental control and the loss of a child's right to use them whether for an evening or a month is very meaningful. Parents must be strong - the scene that ensues when the internet is cut off is something to behold (I speak from experience) - but in the end, a determined parent can prevail without resorting to violence.
David Eastburn (Prep B and Mid A 1947-55)

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by michael scuffil » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:38 pm

For reasons I've given above, I don't think institutional corporal punishment is acceptable: the scope for abuse is simply too great.
In the home, I think a spontaneous slap is probably the best way to control disobedience by young children who are testing how far they can go. They wouldn't remember the next day why they aren't (for example) allowed to watch TV. But spontaneous is the key word. Any form of corporal punishment which is remotely ritualized or seriously designed to hurt can only, in my view, poisons relationships.
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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by huntertitus » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:48 pm

I agree with that. The incident I was writing about was when my son was about 8-10 years old. If when they were very little, they ran into the road, putting their life at risk, or if any of them were seen bullying a younger member of the family a slap on the leg, in my opinion, was justified, because afterwards a simple warning would be enough to stop a repeat. After they reach the age of reason there is no need for corporal punishment. The taking away of the beloved screens is punishment far worse in their opinion. And when they say "But what will I DO all evening?" and you say "Well you could read a book, do a jigsaw, play Scrabble or Monopoly" the look on their face is a picture to behold! ("The Horror! The Horror!)

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by Sean » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:58 pm

Corporal punishment.....................oh what jolly fun we did have chaps!
No 1. I punched another boy for reaching between my legs (we were binding down for my first ever scrum) in my first rugby match. I got 6 whacks from Mr Plumleys slipper OUCH!
No 2. Late for a rugby match. A further 6 whacks from Mr P and his slipper Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
No 3. Julian Angel and I were chatting outside the Arts Centre when some stones were thrown at us, we took cover, they broke a window and we were told that we were going to get 6 strokes of the cane for it from Ubi. Julian refused so I did too. We were threatened with rustication. Julian and I agreed that we better get it out of the way rather than get 6 now and 6 when we get back from rustication. Nothing ever happened to the guys who threw the stones.
No 4. Mr Bardou called me a lazy good for nothing English boy, I called him an insufferable frog that gave me chronic wind. I got 6 strokes from Ubi.
No 5. caught smoking. 6 strokes of the cane from Ubi.

Do drills count as corporal punishment? I managed to accrue 115 of those by never turning up for them. I did the resulting detentions instead as they allowed me to do my prep in peace.
Middleton B '73 to '78

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by englishangel » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:25 pm

Apparently there is a movement to bring back the cane.

I think in these enlightened times (well any times really) it is counterproductive.

Caning for bullying? You should not bully smaller/younger/weaker children. BUT I am bigger/older/stronger than you and I can whack you!! Waht happens when you are no longer b/o/s? Does not compute.

Caning for smoking. Nonsense.

And Sean's comment on peace to do prep just shows what a nonsense drills are.
"If a man speaks, and there isn't a woman to hear him, is he still wrong?"

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by J.R. » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:21 pm

I'm afraid the return of the cane stands in the same light as the return of capital punishment. It'll never happen !

We have signed up to those wonderous people over the water, (or through the tunnel), that spend all our money on stupid directives, that we will NEVER return to those forms of punishment.

Just think what the 'Yewman-Rites' people would say if w did !!!
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by DavebytheSea » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:40 pm

John - please don't set me off on Capital punishment again!

You know it makes me very angry. I abhor ALL violence and get very steamed up when I hear people advocating it. I have to take more pills.
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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by Sean » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:47 am

I am not arguing for corporal punishment to re-instated, I don't think the country is ready for it and I don't think that it will ever have any beneficial effects these days.
I will say that I never had a problem with the forms of punishment we lived with, my problem was in the application of the punishments. We were never sure just when we would be punished in that way. There was many a time when I broke the rules to such a degree that I merited the stated punishment but Masters decided that it would not have any beneficial effect on me. At other times I was punished for ridiculous reasons, such as being late for a rugby match. Use on earth was there for corporal punishment in that instance?
I suppose it was different rules for different times and perhaps I should feel glad that the population has moved on to the point where those punishments are not necessary. the trouble is that I hear stories from kids in state schools and all I hear is mayhem and anarchy. We need some way of regaining control in our schools.
Any suggestions folks?
Middleton B '73 to '78

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by huntertitus » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:59 am

Fear of authority is the key and without any corporal punishment this takes a very special person. I am sure we all remember certain teachers with a natural authority who would get respect without resorting to violence. And didn't it say on the old cloister arch "Fear God; Honour the King"

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by DavebytheSea » Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:28 pm

Sorry to disagree, but .......

Not fear, but respect - they are different.

I remember people laughing at me for reasoning with my obstreporous 3 yr old daughter when clearly the logic of my arguments escaped her. However, the tone of voice did not. She is now 42, and our mutual respect remains. Occasionally, she still seeks my advice (as I occasionally seek hers).

Teaching by example is all important. Our own respect and consideration for others breeds respect and consideration in our children. Conversely the use of force or physical violence teaches that the use of these is legitimate wherever and whenever the logic of our argument is insufficiently persuasive.

As a teacher, I was amazed that some children found me intimidating - I never ever struck a child and rarely lost my cool. I never intended to be intimidating or instil fear, yet clearly (in respect of those who did find me intimidating) I failed in my attempts to always consider the feelings of those in my tutelage.

If I had no disciplinary problems in my classes, I would like to think it was simply that I never anticipated any - if my class discipline was the result of fear, then I taught a poor lesson, indeed.
David Eastburn (Prep B and Mid A 1947-55)

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Re: Corporal Punishment......

Post by Ajarn Philip » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:43 pm

DavebytheSea wrote:Sorry to disagree, but .......

Not fear, but respect - they are different.

I remember people laughing at me for reasoning with my obstreporous 3 yr old daughter when clearly the logic of my arguments escaped her. However, the tone of voice did not. She is now 42, and our mutual respect remains. Occasionally, she still seeks my advice (as I occasionally seek hers).

Teaching by example is all important. Our own respect and consideration for others breeds respect and consideration in our children. Conversely the use of force or physical violence teaches that the use of these is legitimate wherever and whenever the logic of our argument is insufficiently persuasive.

As a teacher, I was amazed that some children found me intimidating - I never ever struck a child and rarely lost my cool. I never intended to be intimidating or instil fear, yet clearly (in respect of those who did find me intimidating) I failed in my attempts to always consider the feelings of those in my tutelage.

If I had no disciplinary problems in my classes, I would like to think it was simply that I never anticipated any - if my class discipline was the result of fear, then I taught a poor lesson, indeed.
This is a tricky one these days, Dave.

I teach at university level in Thailand. Respect is pretty much automatic here. When I walk along a corridor, students (in uniform) greet me with a 'wai'. In many (usually first year) classes students stand and say "Good morning, teacher". I have problems with late arrivals, especially for the 8.30 a.m. classes, and occasionally with mobile phones, but I don't have what any teacher at any level in the UK would call 'disciplinary problems'. No student would ever dream of directly contradicting me - hell's teeth, it takes some brave soul 5 minutes to pluck up the courage to tell me that we already covered a page I'm starting on - if I was a Thai teacher they probably wouldn't tell me at all.

There's a happy medium somewhere between the 'respect your elders (regardless of whether they deserve it or not)', which tends to be accompanied by an inability/unwillingness to speak one's mind and find things out for oneself, and the anarchy and violence that reign in an inner-city western school.

I use drama quite a lot in my classes, and I get frustrated by the length of time it takes to get my students to understand that I want them to speak their minds and think for themselves. But I don't have to worry about a knife in my guts, regardless of how bad my lesson may be.

I agree with your principle as a parent, but I assume you aren't a teacher now. I'm not sure it would apply in many schools in the UK today - why would any student of any age be intimidated by any teacher in any way? Contempt is much more likely than fear.

Not a pretty picture, but I'm only talking about 95% of today's classes.

I am not, of course, advocating a return to corporal punishment. But I can't see a solution.
I know exactly what words I am wanting to say, but somehow or other they is always getting squiffsquiddled around

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