Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

michael scuffil wrote: ↑
Which brings us to the St George's flag. Apart from churches (it's the Church of England, not the Church of Britain, after all) and at football matches (same reason), its use was unknown till about 20 years ago. It has however now become an aggressively chauvinistic symbol. You may dispute this, but that would, as I said, be disingenuous. We all know what it means.

We've known for more than 20 years that St George is the patron saint of England, and that flying the flag is a symbol of national identity and pride, just as flying the national flag is in Wales and Scotland.

It has been tainted but no need to subvert it.

We've known for more than 20 years that St George is the patron saint of England, and that flying the flag is a symbol of national identity and pride.

If Wikipedia is to be trusted as a reference, then we've known this since 1933 when it was decided for us by an Irishman. The St George cross was nothing more than a royal banner or maritime flag until then. The concept of a national flag arose in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, by which point the union flag had been in existence for 200 years and became the symbol of both England and the UK more generally.

The St George cross was allocated to England as a national flag in about 1933 because it was decided that we couldn't claim the union flag for ourselves because it encompassed the crosses of the patron saints of Ireland and Scotland.

I own a St George's cross flag and fly it proudly during World Cups. But there's no meaningful history of national identity behind it.

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm
It's a shame when anybody has the courage and honesty to express what they really feel, they are immediately accused of racism.

Whilst I would not have used the same analogy , I agree with the thrust of the argument that we are being forced to embrace diversity rather than tolerate it.

The country is too PC - not my words, but the words of a maltese banker I had dinner with in Valetta about three years ago.

I live in England because I like the way of life and our culture. If I want to embrace another culture I will go and spend time there.

I have worked in France, speak the language, studied in french, and one of my degrees is from a french university, and I'm very glad to see the tricolor flown from every town hall. My local council will not allow the St George to be displayed in pubs on St George's day, but the flying of other nations' flags on variously appointed diversity days is permissable.

You rarely hear english spoken in my locality, and people don't queue at bus stops instead barging ahead, regardless of OAPs who have patiently stood in line. And
many people over the last 15 years have moved down to the coast because the area has been swamped by foreign cultures.

I fear the famous english sense of humour is being eroded. Much of the humour from the heyday of comedy in the 70s would now be considered inappropriate, even if racism was the last thing on peoples' minds.

Statements of fact are too easily conflated with racism.

Come on - I doubt very much that David is racist, but the statement he made is objectively offensive (particularly in light of the abuse issues we've been discussing). Change the ethnic groups to which David, the offenders and victim belong and would you still defend his right to express what he feels without being accused of racism? I think by admitting you wouldn't have used the same analogy you are admitting that Dick had a right to call him out.

A few observations and comments with regards the other points:

- The UK absorbed so many other cultures during the days of empire that that it's hard to know what UK culture actually is? Do you claim fish and chips? Curry? Tea? Rock'n'Roll? How long ago did we have to steal it for it to now be "ours"? Doesn't culture, by definition, evolve?

- People haven't queued at bus stops for years. When I lived in London (1998-2004) it was every man woman and child for themselves when the bus arrived. It's incredibly rude for sure, but that's the way it was. I had to relearn the art of queueing when I moved over here (where, bizarrely, bus stops are one place that every one obeys the rules of etiquette).

- English humor is alive and well. It's just diluted by the huge amount of tripe that's produced to fill the slots on BBC 45 and ITV 133. That's modern life and, as blur said, modern life is rubbish.

- maybe its just that we're all getting old and pining for the way things were in our day. But before we all join the blue rinse brigade, maybe we want to remind ourselves how we felt about that lot when we were younger. Maybe racist is too strong a term for all this. Xenophobia, anyone?

Edited from bust stop to bus stop, Graham.

Reflecting on (returning to?) the topic “Old Blue 2018” the "school like no other" claim has already been discussed. I would take issue with almost the very first claim in the brochure, “Christ’s Hospital is the most diverse boarding school in the UK.” I can think of at least one school (e.g. https://www.atlanticcollege.org/) where the students range from refugees to royalty and come from over 90 different countries etc. etc. with the vast majority on full or part scholarships chosen by their national committees – I’m sure there are several others that are also more ‘diverse’ than CH. This is not to knock CH – just to knock the PR people who make wild, unsubstantiated and unnecessary claims.

graham wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:21 pm

CodFlabAndMuck wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:38 pm

Come on - I doubt very much that David is racist, but the statement he made is objectively offensive (particularly in light of the abuse issues we've been discussing). Change the ethnic groups to which David, the offenders and victim belong and would you still defend his right to express what he feels without being accused of racism? I think by admitting you wouldn't have used the same analogy you are admitting that Dick had a right to call him out

I completely agree with you, which is why I would not have used that analogy.

gneuss wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:34 pm Reflecting on (returning to?) the topic “Old Blue 2018” the "school like no other" claim has already been discussed. I would take issue with almost the very first claim in the brochure, “Christ’s Hospital is the most diverse boarding school in the UK.” I can think of at least one school (e.g. https://www.atlanticcollege.org/) where the students range from refugees to royalty and come from over 90 different countries etc. etc. with the vast majority on full or part scholarships chosen by their national committees – I’m sure there are several others that are also more ‘diverse’ than CH. This is not to knock CH – just to knock the PR people who make wild, unsubstantiated and unnecessary claims.

It would have been better had CH claimed to be one of the most diverse

As my husband worked for the British Council, we could have sent our sons to Atlantic College, and sometimes I wish we had moved them. I don't know whether the British Council still has guaranteed places.

On the 'flags' issue, as I recall, anyone has the right to fly the Cross of St. George, but MUST have local authority permission to fly the Union Standard, (Union Jack).

J.R. - this was changed in 2012 - my previous post refers.

J.R. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:26 pm On the 'flags' issue, as I recall, anyone has the right to fly the Cross of St. George, but MUST have local authority permission to fly the Union Standard, (Union Jack).

Which I feel could be considered offensive. Do I have the right to fly the Red Hand of Ulster flag? OTOH the Union Jack represents the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland so why are we only allowed to fly the flag of a part of the nation and not that of where we live.?
Politicians1111111111111111111111
The Red Duster and RN flags - that I can understand - there are logical reasons

J.R. wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:26 pm On the 'flags' issue, as I recall, anyone has the right to fly the Cross of St. George, but MUST have local authority permission to fly the Union Standard, (Union Jack).

Nope - not anymore see:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _guide.pdf

From that document...
(a) Flags which do not need consent
The recent changes allow a wider range of national, sub-national, community and international flags. The full list of flags that do not require consent are:
(a) Any country’s national flag, civil ensign or civil air ensign;
(b) The flag of the Commonwealth, the European Union, the United Nations or any other international organisation of which the United Kingdom is a member;
(c) A flag of any island, county, district, borough, burgh, parish, city, town or village within the United Kingdom;
(d) The flag of the Black Country, East Anglia, Wessex, any Part of Lincolnshire, any Riding of Yorkshire or any historic county within the United Kingdom;
(e) The flag of Saint David;
(f) The flag of Saint Patrick;
(g) The flag of any administrative area within any country outside the United Kingdom;
(h) Any flag of Her Majesty’s forces;
(i) The Armed Forces Day flag.

The above flags or their flagpoles must not display any advertisement or subject matter additional to the design of the flag, but the Regulations now highlight that you can attach a black mourning ribbon to either the flag or flagpole where the flag cannot be flown at half mast, for example, when flying a flag on a flagpole projecting at an angle from the side of a building. The use of the word “country” in (a) and (g) of the list above, includes any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and any British Overseas Territory. The flags of St George and St Andrew are recognised as the national flags of England and Scotland, but the flags of St David and St Patrick are listed separately as they do not necessarily fall into the category of a country’s national flag.

Thanks Guys for the flag-pole-flag update.
Just shows one can't keep fully up to date with all legislation changes.

Thanks, Great Plum.
Within the Introduction to the page you quoted is the staement:

All flag flying is subject to some standard conditions
All flags must be:
•
be maintained in a condition that does not
impair the overall visual appearance of
the site ;
•
(edited out by me)
•
be removed carefully where so required by the planning authority

So a planning authority CAN require that a flag be removed - there is no comment about reason for the demand. They could even claim that a flag impairs the overall visual appearance of the site. Seems pretty open to interpretation to me.

On another tack (and a situation I came across frequently especially at sailing clubs) which seems contrary to the rules:
If there is a jack (a pole sticking out from the side of a flag pole) then the Union flag should be flown from the jack. However, it was the practice to fly a house flag at the top of the flagpole at the same time.
I am also surprised that anyone can fly a white ensign or red duster on land; OK at a naval station but joe blogg's semi? Lastly, is Kernow a territory or what? It seems to be excluded.

I realise that the site is an English translation of the rules but it strikles me that the regulations have not been well thought out.

Hence the expression......

"Let's run it up the flag-pole and see who salutes it."

Here in this part of Wales we see a lot of flags, the Red Dragon, of course and in recent years that has been joined by St David’s Cross, yellow upright cross in black, and also Owain Glyndwr’s banner see https://l7.alamy.com/zooms/6efa74a090dc ... ctwjje.jpg. It is rare to see the Union Jack, bunting is usually red, green and white not red blue and white.

I am delighted that CH has managed to foster a culture where it is possible to celebrate a particular group, whether it be ethnic, religious, LGBT(..and some others), without anyone in the immediate environment finding it offensive, racist, condascending.