Brexit

[Otter]

My grandson was born in County Mayo, but my son was told he was not entitled to get an Irish passport as neither of his parents were Irish.

I gather he was born in or after 2005 then? Because anyone born on the island of Ireland before 2005 is automatically entitled to Irish citizenship. Ireland was the last country in Europe to revoke automatic birthplace citizenship (jus soli) after disapproval following the 'Man Chen' case, where a Chinese woman living in mainland UK on a temporary work visa travelled to Belfast for the sole purpose of giving birth so that her child would be an Irish citizen, and thus the family could stay in the UK indefinitely as the parents of a dependent EU citizen. As an aside, the UK abolished unconditional jus soli in 1983.

My son was born in Costa Rica, but has a British passport, and his wife is French
... my daughter-in-law now has a British passport but they had problems getting my grandson one, despite the fact that his four sisters were all born in the UK.

Yes, the UK in most cases does not allow foreign-born UK citizens to transmit their British citizenship to their own children. With some exceptions, as a rule, people born abroad to a British parent can only be a UK citizen if you have a parent who is a UK citizen and was born in the UK.

At this rate I will be the only family member with one passport, unless I try for a Spanish one.

I seem to remember Spain is quite restrictive with dual citizenship, with people from most countries having to renounce their original citizenship if they want to naturalise as Spanish? Though I wonder if they have, or plan to have, a Brexit grace for this - the Netherlands has an almost total ban on dual citizenship but has allowed their citizens living in the UK to naturalise as Brits without having to give up their Dutch citizenship which they would usually have to, with plans for vice versa for Brits living there, directly due to Brexit.

[jhopgood]

My grandson was born in County Mayo, but my son was told he was not entitled to get an Irish passport as neither of his parents were Irish.

I gather he was born in or after 2005

Correct. 2009



I seem to remember Spain is quite restrictive with dual citizenship, with people from most countries having to renounce their original citizenship if they want to naturalise as Spanish? Though I wonder if they have, or plan to have, a Brexit grace for this

Not sure but I was told by someone who took out Spanish citizenship to ensure that her daughter would have no problem, (they both work and live in Spain), that she was told by the British Embassy to hand over her passport to the Spanish authorities when she got her citizenship, and then report it as lost to the Embassy. I’m sure this was informal advice but it probably works.
In theory Costa Ricans can only have one passport, so my wife should have given up her Costa Rican, when she got her British passport, pre 1983. However, you cannot be denied a Costa Rican passport if you were born in Costa Rica, so she had both. Not that she ever used her CR passport, but the CR identity card gave her free bus rides as a pensioner. And cheap access to National parks etc.

[scrub]

Not sure but I was told by someone who took out Spanish citizenship to ensure that her daughter would have no problem, (they both work and live in Spain), that she was told by the British Embassy to hand over her passport to the Spanish authorities when she got her citizenship, and then report it as lost to the Embassy. I’m sure this was informal advice but it probably works.

Funny as it may sound, unless they wanted proof that she'd renounced her citizenship, then it'd probably be fine. Renouncing citizenship is straightforward enough but there are better things you could do with £400 and the time it takes to submit all that paperwork.

Unless you're running for election for government in a country that insists you only have the citizenship of that country, then I don't think anyone will check.

[sejintenej]

I went on holiday with my wife to South Africa. My visa was for a period up to my expected exit date plus a few days. My wife, beside me with a UK passport, was given an unlimited stay visa . She was born there and her parents got her UK naturalisation but the immigration officials noticed she was born there.

[jhopgood]

There's no telling what immigration officials will do.

On my recent trip to Costa Rica I was stuck behind some Spanish who were obviously travelling in a group. The group leader was in another queue and they spent all their time rushing about to get details of hotels, return flights etc, and got visas commensurate with their stay in Costa Rica.

When I got there, I stated that I was there for a family reunion, gave the address of my sister-in-law and was given the maximum 90 days, which allowed me to go to the duty free zone and buy alcohol for the party were were arranging.

On my previous visit, taking my wife's ashes back, I was given a visa related to my return flight.

Who knows?

When I worked in Argentina, our International Security Advisor would make occasional visits. He had been born in Argentina, but travelled on a British Passport and had been in the UK military. He was always given grief at the airport, so to avoid this he would travel to Montevideo and come over on the ferry. He said he never had a problem on that route.

He was a golfer and travelled with his clubs, and all his clothes stuffed in the golf bag, so that he only had hand luggage and the golf bag. He claimed that golf bags come off first so he never had to wait.

[Otter]

When I worked in Argentina, our International Security Advisor would make occasional visits. He had been born in Argentina, but travelled on a British Passport and had been in the UK military. He was always given grief at the airport, so to avoid this he would travel to Montevideo and come over on the ferry. He said he never had a problem on that route.

People in countries that have unconditional birthplace citizenship (like Argentina and most of the Americas) don't seem to realise that in almost the entire world outside of the Americas, being born in a particular country does not mean you are automatically a citizen of that country, and so you might not have a passport from there. I wonder if they assumed that being born there, he would have an Argentine passport.

Also, some countries insist, or even legally require (like the US and Canada), that dual nationals of their country and another country, enter the country using the passport from that country and not their other passport. The UK and most European countries have no such rule. My siblings-in-law are US citizens as they were born there while my parents-in-law were working there for a few years. My wife is not a US citizen as she was born here after the family returned to the UK. My siblings-in-law have no cultural identification or ties with the US, and only have British passports, although they could get US passports if they wanted. When they have gone on holiday there, they have always been stopped and asked why they aren't using their US passports, which of course they have never held. I wonder if it was similar for the guy you mention.

[scrub]

Also, some countries insist, or even legally require (like the US and Canada), that dual nationals of their country and another country, enter the country using the passport from that country and not their other passport. The UK and most European countries have no such rule.

I'm fairly sure they do. The UK definitely wants to see my UK passport when I come in and Oz wants to see my Oz one when I go back home.

You need to show you have the right to automatically enter the country otherwise you need to answer a lot of questions about visas, lengths of stay, etc. Especially if your other citizenship is with a country that doesn't have reciprocal visa-free/waiver schemes with the other one.

[Otter]

Also, some countries insist, or even legally require (like the US and Canada), that dual nationals of their country and another country, enter the country using the passport from that country and not their other passport. The UK and most European countries have no such rule.

I'm fairly sure they do. The UK definitely wants to see my UK passport when I come in and Oz wants to see my Oz one when I go back home.

You need to show you have the right to automatically enter the country otherwise you need to answer a lot of questions about visas, lengths of stay, etc. Especially if your other citizenship is with a country that doesn't have reciprocal visa-free/waiver schemes with the other one.

While there is no legal requirement in the UK for dual nationals to enter using their British passport, since Brexit it is de facto what you have to do, and the only sensible option - obviously a dual UK-EU national is not going to go through the new immigration hurdles when they can just use their UK passport. But prior to Brexit, an EU passport showed that you had the right to automatically enter the country, so dual nationals of the UK and another EU country were free to use either one - I did this myself, using whichever one I happened to pick up, or whichever one had not expired if the other one had or was close to doing so. That would never have been the case with an Australian passport as there is no automatic right for Brits and Australians to enter each other's countries.

Contrast that with the US and Canada (https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/documen ... itizenship ), which have specific laws requiring dual nationals to enter their country on the passport from that country. Their own citizens can actually be denied entry to their country of citizenship if they use their other passport - this happened to Boris Johnson when travelling to the US on his British passport: https://www.boris-johnson.com/2006/08/2 ... -passport/

[Katharine]

I had a reminder today why it is useful still having a UK passport. As my 76th birthday is approaching I had the three yearly letter from DVLA asking me to renew my driving licence. I applied online, which needed my UK passport number. Is that sufficient reason to keep the passport?

[loringa]

I had a reminder today why it is useful still having a UK passport. As my 76th birthday is approaching I had the three yearly letter from DVLA asking me to renew my driving licence. I applied online, which needed my UK passport number. Is that sufficient reason to keep the passport?

I believe that the only reason they require your passport details is so the same photograph can be used on your driving licence as on your passport. I would therefore suspect that the answer to your question is no; you may just have to submit a new photograph next time if you don't have a passport.

[scrub]

Is that sufficient reason to keep the passport?

Unless I'm mistaken, a UK passport is considered legitimate ID for voting in the UK, so there's another reason.

[Katharine]

I had a reminder today why it is useful still having a UK passport. As my 76th birthday is approaching I had the three yearly letter from DVLA asking me to renew my driving licence. I applied online, which needed my UK passport number. Is that sufficient reason to keep the passport?

I believe that the only reason they require your passport details is so the same photograph can be used on your driving licence as on your passport. I would therefore suspect that the answer to your question is no; you may just have to submit a new photograph next time if you don't have a passport.

I chose to apply online and didn’t really look at the form they sent. Applying on paper you don’t need passport or NI number, but you need a new photo. The other difference is that you need to send your current licence back with the form instead of promising to cut it up when the new one arrives.

Unless I'm mistaken, a UK passport is considered legitimate ID for voting in the UK, so there's another reason.

True, but so is the driving licence. My old git’s bus pass, also allowed for ID, issued 15 years ago doesn’t show a white haired woman, not sure I’d be recognised!

[sejintenej]

You need to show you have the right to automatically enter the country otherwise you need to answer a lot of questions about visas, lengths of stay, etc.

Even if you have been through immigration you can be accosted with mal intent.
Having come through immigration at Stanstead using a British passport I was stopped where the customs could stop people for inspection. I was using a CH accent - ie pretty normal British when I was stopped by some jobsworth who demanded to know where I had come from (Carcasonne. France), why are you here? (to attend a funeral), how long are you staying? (3 days) where are you staying? (home) and a host of other stupid questions. If only the stupid idiot jobsworth had asked to see my passport and/or return ticket but he was too stupid to ask for those to confirm my claims. Our uncivil service are the pits - I have just suffered an impasse with the tax people who refused to accept phone calls and whose web site does not allow the simplest of questions even after you go through a 2 hour questionnaire to allow you to phone them...