Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

From time to time I am reminded of a history essay topic that was set by M T Cherniavsky (aka Cherny) for his Upper Fourth A form in 1956. I have no recollection of what I wrote in response, nor what a pertinent response might be, but I remember the essay title very clearly.

The title was: If Constantinople had not fallen to the Turks in 1453, Christ's Hospital might never have been founded, might never have survived.

My memory often throws up this essay title when I am talking or writing about the history of SE Europe/Middle East/Ottoman Empire. I have lived and travelled a lot in that region and am interested in its history. Does anybody from the Cherny era have any idea what Cherny's point might have been? Can anybody else from later on hazard a guess as to what the point might have been?

brian walling wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:40 pm From time to time I am reminded of a history essay topic that was set by M T Cherniavsky (aka Cherny) for his Upper Fourth A form in 1956. I have no recollection of what I wrote in response, nor what a pertinent response might be, but I remember the essay title very clearly.

The title was: If Constantinople had not fallen to the Turks in 1453, Christ's Hospital might never have been founded, might never have survived.

My memory often throws up this essay title when I am talking or writing about the history of SE Europe/Middle East/Ottoman Empire. I have lived and travelled a lot in that region and am interested in its history. Does anybody from the Cherny era have any idea what Cherny's point might have been? Can anybody else from later on hazard a guess as to what the point might have been?

What a truly inspired title. I would imagine it was based on 2 premises:

Firstly, that the growing Ottoman power from this date on coincided with the Protestant Reformation and subsequent Counter-Reformation which weakened the extent of the Pope's authority (even though Orthodox Christianity not Catholicism was, of course, practised there).

Secondly, the migration of waves of Byzantine scholars and émigrés in the period following the fall of Constantinople is considered by many scholars as key to the revival of Greek and Roman studies that led to the development of the Renaissance humanism and ushered in the Age of Enlightenment.

The Protestant reformation in Europe clearly influenced Henry VIII in his break with Rome though he was never really a Protestant himself. Nonetheless, the weakening of the Pope's authority would undoubtedly have encouraged him. Linked to this is the dawning of the Age of Enlightenment which, in putting reason before faith, similarly threatened the Pope's authority.

I suspect this is what your history teacher might have been getting at.

Very interesting, as someone who doesn’t understand Horsham year names, how old would you have been in Upper Fourth?

Definitely an idea to ponder, had the monasteries not gone, there wouldn’t have been CH. so working back from that … I agree with much that losing a writes.

Katharine wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:34 pm Very interesting, as someone who doesn’t understand Horsham year names, how old would you have been in Upper Fourth?

Upper Fourth (UF) aged 14 / 15.

The Upper Fourth at Horsham was, in my time at least, the traditional fourth form (now Year 10) as we started at the Second Form (Year 7), then Third (Year Eight), Lower Fourth (Year 9), Upper Fourth (Year 10) and then Great Erasmus (Year 11). Fast streamers joined the Little Erasmus at Year 9 instead of the LF and took O Levels a year early joining up with the GE having missed out Year 10 completely.

We 'went up' from junior houses after the LE / LF so fast streamers went straight into their O Level year in their first year in a completely new environment.

I can't imagine why you might find this a bit confusing!

Fascinating, like all What-If counterhistories ... But I love the provocativeness of the question. Cherny was my housemaster, but never taught me (otherwise I suspect I might have become a real historian instead of a self-taught amateur).
I like Katherine's point about the monasteries, since without the Henrician Dissolution, a) there would have been no Greyfriars premises available, but also b) because prior to the Dissolution, the religious Houses were responsible for so much social welfare, including looking after orphans.

Katharine wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:34 pm Definitely an idea to ponder, had the monasteries not gone, there wouldn’t have been CH. so working back from that … I agree with much that losing a writes.

Of course, whilst folk often conflate Henry VIII's split from Rome with the dissolution of the monasteries, without which there would clearly have been no spare Greyfriars and no Christ's Hospital, the two were largely separate events, if not unrelated. Henry's split from Rome, as evry skoolbo kno, was so he could divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn and beget a son; his dissolution of the monasteries, however, was to raise money, largely to fund his unsuccessful adventuring in France. Had he been granted a divorce by Pope Clement (the seventh of his name), it is perfectly possible that he would have still dissolved the monasteries, but there is no certainty of this, of course, one way or another.

In his novel 'The Alteration' Martin Amis doesn't mention that the monasteries were dissolved by Henry, however, as in this parallel world Henry remains married to Catherine and Catherine was a staunch Catholic, I suspect he didn't. It's an interesting idea though; how different the world might have been if Henry has been granted his divorce!

loringa wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:47 pm Of course, whilst folk often conflate Henry VIII's split from Rome with the dissolution of the monasteries, without which there would clearly have been no spare Greyfriars and no Christ's Hospital, the two were largely separate events, if not unrelated.................... Had he been granted a divorce by Pope Clement (the seventh of his name), it is perfectly possible that he would have still dissolved the monasteries, but there is no certainty of this, of course, one way or another.

I have heard two conflicting reports about the foundation of what was to become CH.
The first (which I personally doubt) is that Henry VIII himself was concerned about the poor children of London but death took him before he could actually get round to doing anything.
The second (and the one we were taught) was that Edward VI heard and was moved by the sermon by ?Cranmer.
Perchance there just happened to be a vacant building which could be taken and used; If Henry VIII had not been responsible for emptying that building what are the chances that Edward VI and those behind the foundation would have searched for and found another building to house Christs Hospital?.

I thought that by emptying the monasteries it removed those who had had the caring roles in society, those who had looked after the sick, the children and the insane. It was that lack of care that was noticed.

Yes it's sad that the monasteries lost their social security role at this time Katharine. But imagine what would have happened if Iain Duncan Smith had been Henry's advisor at the time. Things would have been a whole lot worse. As to the Upper Fourth in the 1950s, I did History under Chern in the Fifth Form and we were never faced with teasing intellectual conundrums like this. I guess he must have seen our (or my) limitations.

rockfreak wrote: ↑Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:25 pm Yes it's sad that the monasteries lost their social security role at this time Katharine. But imagine what would have happened if Iain Duncan Smith had been Henry's advisor at the time. Things would have been a whole lot worse.

What on earth has Iain Duncan-Smith got to do with it? He is, I think, a pretty inoffensive sort of chap who resigned from Government, if I recall correctly, in protest to cuts to disability benefits, something with which I would have thought you would have agreed. Nonetheless, I will congratulate you on drawing together the single most tenuous link ever to appear on this forum so well done with that!

For the full picture of Iain Duncan Smith's policies when he was actually Minister for Work and Pensions under the Coalition, see his entry in Wiki. It was he who first made life more difficult for the disabled who had to go through hoops at ATOS to get anything at all. UK Uncut picketed their offices and succeeded in occupying their reception on one action.

He was also responsible for Universal Credit and the Bedroom Tax (another action by Uncut when we invaded and occupied his colleague Lord Freud's private road with a removal van, rolled out packing cases and demanded "Evict a millionaire"). Several people from the Disabled People Against Cuts movement trekked out to Duncan Smith's stately pile in Herts to make their protest.

His policies while in office were eventually roundly criticised by Oxfam, the Trussell Trust and the Archbishop of Canterbury. His voters in Chingford were not much impressed either. At the last election they savagely slashed his comfortable majority.

brian walling wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:40 pm From time to time I am reminded of a history essay topic that was set by M T Cherniavsky (aka Cherny) for his Upper Fourth A form in 1956. I have no recollection of what I wrote in response, nor what a pertinent response might be, but I remember the essay title very clearly.

The title was: If Constantinople had not fallen to the Turks in 1453, Christ's Hospital might never have been founded, might never have survived.

My memory often throws up this essay title when I am talking or writing about the history of SE Europe/Middle East/Ottoman Empire. I have lived and travelled a lot in that region and am interested in its history. Does anybody from the Cherny era have any idea what Cherny's point might have been? Can anybody else from later on hazard a guess as to what the point might have been?

Wow. On my UF, we were taught about the causes of WW1 - this seems quite a complicated topic to teach to 15 yr olds - more of an A Level question (?)

Just curious, but can you remember any other essay titles you were given to write...?

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:58 amWow. On my UF, we were taught about the causes of WW1

Same here. I think this was considered to be my year's natural level in terms of complex historical events and as long as we could knock out a 1000 word essay saying "something something assassination of arch-duke Ferdinand something something dissidents", we'd pass GSCE late modern history. That seemed to be the important part as I recall it.

All I remember was a bit on pre-WWI and a lot more on the few years before WWII, mostly the rise of the Nazi party. I don't recall anything else and as I remember it, the late modern history I was taught was really tightly focussed on a half a dozen years.

Bismarck- Franco - Prussian War - Rise of the Nazi Party - Potsdam Conference.

Agree

I think Putin considers himself a modern day Bismarck.

AMP wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:51 pm Bismarck- Franco - Prussian War - Rise of the Nazi Party - Potsdam Conference.

Agree

I think Putin considers himself a modern day Bismarck.

I like Putin. I like his style....