CH ARMS AND THE SWORD

[DavebytheSea]

Moving this topic to here to give it more prominence and hopefully get a reply. Do these changes need to be communicated to the College of Heralds?

[DavebytheSea]

Just for the record, I have done a bit of delving and the correct description of the Christ's Hospital coat-of-arms is:

"...argent, a cross gules in the dexter chief, a dagger of the first on a chief azure between two fleurs-de-lis, or, a rose argent."

Well, that has settled that!

[DavebytheSea]

Sorry for replying on an old thread, but I was looking for a description of the CH coat of arms and found this very helpful:

Just for the record, I have done a bit of delving and the correct description of the Christ's Hospital coat-of-arms is:

"...argent, a cross gules in the dexter chief, a dagger of the first on a chief azure between two fleurs-de-lis, or, a rose argent."

Well, that has settled that!

It did get me thinking: Does anyone know when the School started using a coat of arms featuring a yellow rose as opposed to the white one mentioned above? I wonder if this is a deliberate decision or just a mistake that has gone so far unnoticed. As I imagine the answer is the former, does anyone have any idea of the reasoning behind it?

[DavebytheSea]

.... and is the current sword as described in Foureyes posting of the official version?

[Foureyes]

This topic has arisen without saying where it came from. Please give some back references (eg, title of earlier thread) so that I can refresh my memory and I might be able to help.
Incidentally, one does not 'communicate changes to the College of Heralds.' Oh no, oh no, oh dear me no! They are the absolute authority and they will investigate and validate every suggestion for change before giving it their approval (or, and not infrequently, otherwise). They are very stuffy, very punctilious and very slow - let me amend that - they are very, very stuffy!
I have it in the back of my mind that I read somewhere that the school (I use the term in its widest sense to include Foundation, etc) suddenly discovered that the school coat-of-arms had never been properly authorised by the College of Heralds - I think this happened at sometime in the early part of the second-half of the 20th century - and that the school had to go cap-in-hand to the College to get it sorted out. Anyway, somewhere in the school (but I don't know where) there should be some correspondence with the College of Heralds, which will include not only a written description of the object) (all that proper, sinister, gules and argent stuff) but also a coloured, hand-painted picture, made by the College. [If you have a copy of my book "Sir Barnes Wallis and the RAF Foundationers' Trust" there is a copy of the 617 Squadron coat-of-arms on the inside back cover, which shows what I mean] Before the recent reorganisation I would have said that these documents would be in the Counting House and that Tony Hogarth-Smith would either have them or know where they were, but since the emasculation of the Counting House, I don't know - either the Bursar or the Head Master's Secretary would be good starting points. Otherwise, they might be in the Museum. The written document and picture are important current documents, since they are the basic and continuing authority for the current coat-of-arms.

[Foureyes]

Further to the above, I have just come across this http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3202922
That certainly dates the CH coat-of-arms (whether officially sanctioned or not) back to at least 1700.

[DavebytheSea]

David, your last two posts were fascinating - I hope Jonathan has seen them in the midst of his naval duties. He posted originally on a thread about the Housey shop and Memorabilia which, like so many threads, became confused and unfocused. This link will put you somewhere in the right place viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1925&start=60.

He was interested because, in a moment of idleness, he tried to design a burgee for the CHC&SC which is to hold its first-ever regatta in June to coincide with the Head Master's visit to Cornwall and Devon Old Blues. Only then did he discover that, for reasons unknown, the School was playing fast and loose with the colour of the rose in the school crest. Is this permissable?

For your interest, this is what he came up with:

Burgee suggestion for CHC&SC
Jonathan Eastburn

This is an idea to create, for the Christ’s Hospital Cruising and Sailing Club, a burgee based on the flag of the City of London and arms of Christ’s Hospital, highlighting the historic link between Christ’s Hospital and the City of London.

Specifically:
A centred red St George's Cross on a white background, with a red sword in the upper hoist canton, defaced in the centre by, on an escutcheon argent, a cross gules in the dexter chief, a dagger of the first on a chief azure between two fleurs-de-lis, or, a rose argent.

Unfortunately, I cannot seem to paste the design itself but I can email it to you if you are interested.

[postwarblue]

I always assumed it was a Tudor Rose.

[Katharine]

I always assumed it was a Tudor Rose.

So did I, and that it was red and white!

[DavebytheSea]

Well so did I - but it clearly says Rose Argent, so we are all wrong. By playing around with the color, is CH not committing some sort of heinous lèse-majesté?

[Foureyes]

David,
You are quite correct about the rose, which should (must) be argent (silver). Curiously, I have an Old Blue's blazer badge, which I obtained from an official source some 4-5 years ago (unfortunately, my enthusiasm did not run to a blazer to go with it, but that's another story!). However, in this badge the fleur-de-lys are clearly gold and the rose is silver, albeit with a red centre (but I think that's fair enough).
So, it may well be that the error is on the headed school paper. I shall write to the Clerk.
David

[DavebytheSea]

Wonderful! What fun.

Do let us know what he says.

[Foureyes]

Interestingly, if you look at the C.H. drum on the opening page of this Forum, the rose is clearly silver!

[DavebytheSea]

Music department on the ball - better give lessons on etiquette to the Counting House then.

Some useful tips:
Have respect for the drum. The drum and sacred songs are a ceremony in and of itself, be sure to treat it as such.

Anything being passed at the drum should be passed clockwise around the drum, never over, across, or counter clockwise.

Do not rest anything on top of the drum except for a blanket or drum stick when directed by the Lead Singer.
(Courtesy of the Standing Bear Community)

[Katharine]

Wiki has the rose matching the fleur de lis, all yellow (?gold)