Is private education overrated?

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rockfreak
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Is private education overrated?

Post by rockfreak »

OK folks, this is the big issue. The bouncing bomb. Bouncier than BW. More spectacular than Spoony. Apres Freaky le deluge.
Let's choose a field of activity that I'm familiar with. In 1976 Julie Burchill, aged 17, answered an ad for a job on the NME. She'd previously been working in a biscuit factory in the West Country. Within a short space of time she'd become a name on the paper - what is known in feature writing as a stylist; someone who is read for who they are and what they've got to say. She went on to write plays, novels and an autobiography and to become a newspaper columnist. Now OK, I know her columns were often deliberately controversial (I used to grind my teeth sometimes reading them) but at her best she was capable of great wit and perception, usually when it came to the subject of one law for the well-connected and another for everyone else. One example: her one-time husband Toby Young recounted that they were at a dinner sitting opposite a posh woman who ran a haute couture fashion house. Perhaps knowing that Burchill was working class this woman said patronisingly: "Why is it that working class girls dress so well?" Quick as a flash Burchill shot back: "Probably because they're not wearing your frocks". In her autobiography she revealed that she appeared to be the only person on the NME staff who had been educated at a comprehensive. Interesting, when I remember the way that so many music journos back then slouched around in jeans and leather jackets to demonstrate their street cred.
Just as remarkable was Caitlin Moran who grew up in a three-bedroom council house in Wolverhampton with seven siblings and old-hippie parents who took them out of education when Moran was fourteen. She claims to have been largely self-educated. She was even younger, 16, when she joined the Melody Maker and quickly went on to get her own Channel4 pop show and become a Times columnist and best-selling author. She was quizzed by James O'Brien on his LBC show (You Tube and well worth watching, as indeed is her autobiography "How To Be A Woman") and he asked her why it had taken him (public school and uni) about three times as long to get to where he wanted to be as it had taken her. She thought that having to compete with seven siblings might have had something to do with it although that wouldn't have applied in the case of Burchill who I believe is an only child. Maybe the university of life had something to do with it.
But back then it was still possible to squeeze into this kind of field through the back door if you could persuade a sympathetic editor to take a chance on you. Today, I believe you need a degree and would be willing to go through the indignity of being an unpaid intern to start with, if indeed it led to anything.
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Post by loringa »

The answer is probably that it all depends on the circumstances. Children thrive in different environments depending on a wide range of factors. From what other posters have said on here, as well as from my own experiences, state schools may well be more appropriate for children with certain SEN than most independent schools. Most independent schools, perhaps, but not all; some specialise in ensuring all children achieve their potential, others are more interested in achieving the highest possible academic results. Some state schools are genuinely 'outstanding' whilst others are not, and for a wide range of reasons. Similarly, some independent schools are excellent, others are pretty mediocre.

My own daughter ended up in an independent school when her primary school failed to deliver what she needed; her primary head teacher was sorry to see her go but understood why. Similarly, some children are more comfortable in a state school, again for a wide range of reasons, than in an independent. Because there are simply so few state boarding schools, a small number of parents have little choice but to send their children to independent schools that offer boarding. Again, as others have said on this forum, this can be to both the benefit and to the determent of the child in question; some thrive, some do not, but often the parents send then because there is no viable alternative. It is also worth noting that the hours in independent schools are often much, much longer which may well help when both parents work full time. Another point to consider: whilst it is easy enough to make the transition from a state school to an independent school, the journey the other way is often far harder so sending a child to an independent school is not a decision to take lightly. There are obviously natural break points such as the end of Key Stage 2 or 4 but I have seen children suffer terribly from being forced to move from prep school Year 8 to Year 9 at the local comprehensive school.

The bottom line is, that if you get your child into an excellent state school, why would you wish to pay 20,000 pounds a year to educate her privately? If this opportunity is not available to you, or there are other factors to take into account, then an independent school might be a better option provided, of course, that you can afford it.

So, is private education overrated? If it works for your child and enables her to achieve her full potential then no, it isn't. If you choose it solely because you think it somehow raises your unlovely child above the common herd then you are probably wasting your money. We all make choices in life; when it comes to educating our children then we need to choose what is best for them. If that requires us to move house to where there are better schools, or to spend most of our disposable income paying for something that is otherwise available free of charge, then so be it. It's your choice, no-one else's!
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by Pe.A »

rockfreak wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:44 pm OK folks, this is the big issue. The bouncing bomb. Bouncier than BW. More spectacular than Spoony. Apres Freaky le deluge.
Let's choose a field of activity that I'm familiar with. In 1976 Julie Burchill, aged 17, answered an ad for a job on the NME. She'd previously been working in a biscuit factory in the West Country. Within a short space of time she'd become a name on the paper - what is known in feature writing as a stylist; someone who is read for who they are and what they've got to say. She went on to write plays, novels and an autobiography and to become a newspaper columnist. Now OK, I know her columns were often deliberately controversial (I used to grind my teeth sometimes reading them) but at her best she was capable of great wit and perception, usually when it came to the subject of one law for the well-connected and another for everyone else. One example: her one-time husband Toby Young recounted that they were at a dinner sitting opposite a posh woman who ran a haute couture fashion house. Perhaps knowing that Burchill was working class this woman said patronisingly: "Why is it that working class girls dress so well?" Quick as a flash Burchill shot back: "Probably because they're not wearing your frocks". In her autobiography she revealed that she appeared to be the only person on the NME staff who had been educated at a comprehensive. Interesting, when I remember the way that so many music journos back then slouched around in jeans and leather jackets to demonstrate their street cred.
Just as remarkable was Caitlin Moran who grew up in a three-bedroom council house in Wolverhampton with seven siblings and old-hippie parents who took them out of education when Moran was fourteen. She claims to have been largely self-educated. She was even younger, 16, when she joined the Melody Maker and quickly went on to get her own Channel4 pop show and become a Times columnist and best-selling author. She was quizzed by James O'Brien on his LBC show (You Tube and well worth watching, as indeed is her autobiography "How To Be A Woman") and he asked her why it had taken him (public school and uni) about three times as long to get to where he wanted to be as it had taken her. She thought that having to compete with seven siblings might have had something to do with it although that wouldn't have applied in the case of Burchill who I believe is an only child. Maybe the university of life had something to do with it.
But back then it was still possible to squeeze into this kind of field through the back door if you could persuade a sympathetic editor to take a chance on you. Today, I believe you need a degree and would be willing to go through the indignity of being an unpaid intern to start with, if indeed it led to anything.
The righteous indignation of the educated, middle class crusader...!! : p

I'm finding it tricky to know exactly what your critiquing.

Academic education from a private/independent school or education generally along the lines of 'we dont need no thought control'. Do you include Uni/HE as part of that?

You seem to be misusing facts and conflating certain things, and drawing upon tired stereotypes to suit your narrative.

Some basic errors in your examples. Julie Burchill didnt work in a biscuit factory. Her mother did, and Burchill actually dropped out from her A levels to work at the NME at 17. Probably would have gone to University, and she probably benefited from time and place by joining NME in 76 just as Punk was taking off.
Moran was withdrawn from school at 11 by her hippie parents. Are you seriously condoning that? Odd.

With regards to what your taught, there's not much difference in terms of subjects. Maybe one or two extra.
Knew a kid when i was at CH who went to a comp, and we used the same textbooks.

Education just provides a grounding and hopefully an inspiration, Its what you do with it that counts. I dont think you using the music industry as a backdrop is particularly useful as things have changed from the 70s/80s.
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by MrEd »

Whether it is over-rated, it was clearly wasted on you.
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by Avon »

Pe.A wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:45 pm I'm finding it tricky to know exactly what your critiquing.
Curse you and your non-selective use of facts!
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by rockfreak »

Couple of minor points in response to PeA: Julie Burchill joined the NME precisely because they wanted someone younger to cover the burgeoning punk scene. "Hip young gunslinger wanted" they advertised. She got the job by sending them a sample review of Patti Smith's Horses album. And no, I'm not condoning taking your children out of education in most circumstances. Merely pointing out that that's what they did. In the end, in this argument we always come back to the irrefutable fact that other countries in developed Europe seem to get on perfectly well without our fractured and unfair educational system.

Another of my letters in today's Guardian under the heading "Public anger over private schools":
"The headmaster of Colfe's School says he would welcome a debate about the role of independent schools. The debate is simple. As long as rightwing governments continue to close state school playing fields, cut the education budget to below first world standards and generally make life difficult, those schools will founder. By contrast the well-funded private schools will provide even more state-of-the-art facilities and more middle class parents will bankrupt themselves to get their children into these institutions. The pleas from the Independent Schools Council about more bursaries and assisted places are just tokenism. The continued existence of the private fee-paying sector is a big part of what keeps this country in the educational and social dark ages. It's seventy years now since Churchill and RA Butler failed to grasp this particular nettle."
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by jhopgood »

I am unable to read what the Head of Colfes wrote, but it would be interesting to know since many of my junior class went to Colfes, as did my late brother. It only went independent in 1977, so they must have had a fair amount of support for the decision and for staying independent. All of my generation and my brother were from council estates. The local alternatives were a Crown Woods and Boy George’s Eltham Green.
Not much going for either of them at that time.
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by Katharine »

My sons went to independent boarding schools from the age of 8, poor little mites. This was because my husband worked for the British Council and was globally transferable which meant that we could be moved at any time with very short notice. Many of the places we could have been sent did not have English medium education. We decided that we wanted continuity of education for them and that was the way to ensure it.

Before we had children, we were in Ghana and I taught an American girl in school there. She was an extremely bright red head. Her father was moved almost every year between universities. She had been in Britain the year before and had got about 9 As in GCSE, after just a year there. I used to give her lifts to school, she was quite bitter about all the moves. Life was never easy settling into a new school, she was always the brightest and with that very striking red hair almost always looked different! She just wished she'd stayed in the States with her grandmother, she was going to have to go there the following year to get her US credits to get to university. That was when John and I decided our children would go to boarding school in the UK. I went to CH a year later than most and it took me a long time to break into friendship groups, so I decided that the boys would start at whatever age the school started.

I know our situation was not typical but there are a lot of families in our position working overseas. Independent boarding schools are still important for people like us.
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by scrub »

Is private education overrated?
If we look around at the majority of people in political parties, big businesses, financial entities, journalism, etc, there is a certain sameness to their education path that suggests that, if your goal for your child is to see them in one of these places, then private education is definitely not overrated.

Maybe a more fruitful line of enquiry for you would be "Is private education overrated in relation to what you want for your child (whether they have any say in the matter)?", but that then becomes a mess as people confuse thinking they know what it is their kids ought to want, rather than knowing what it is they really need*. So I guess my answer is maybe, possibly, depends.

*(to borrow from Sir Terry Pratchett)
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by Avon »

Katharine wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:25 am I know our situation was not typical but there are a lot of families in our position working overseas. Independent boarding schools are still important for people like us.
I agree with that - particularly if local provision is poor. In the case of some children, it's expensive for the taxpayer though. In the MoD, Boarding School Allowance (as it was, now CEA) is a significant perk for families. Recent frauds (notably in the Army) have rather discredited the approach however, as it's increasingly being 'gamed' as a means of getting children privately educated. All this in an age where there's no longer the need to sit in Germany drinking epic quantities of beer and waiting for the Soviets to surge through the Fulda Gap, military families aren't as itinerant as they used to be.

I wonder how much of the public school sector is funded by the taxpayer, if all the Military/Diplomatic/Civil Serpent entitlements are added up?
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by Katharine »

Avon wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:30 pm
Katharine wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:25 am I know our situation was not typical but there are a lot of families in our position working overseas. Independent boarding schools are still important for people like us.
I agree with that - particularly if local provision is poor. In the case of some children, it's expensive for the taxpayer though. In the MoD, Boarding School Allowance (as it was, now CEA) is a significant perk for families. Recent frauds (notably in the Army) have rather discredited the approach however, as it's increasingly being 'gamed' as a means of getting children privately educated. All this in an age where there's no longer the need to sit in Germany drinking epic quantities of beer and waiting for the Soviets to surge through the Fulda Gap, military families aren't as itinerant as they used to be.

I wonder how much of the public school sector is funded by the taxpayer, if all the Military/Diplomatic/Civil Serpent entitlements are added up?
One thing it meant was that John felt he had to stay with the British Council, we were lucky in our postings so he wasn’t tempted to move but ... One son did get a scholarship to his senior school, that was taken into account in the BSA we got.
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by Pe.A »

rockfreak wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:41 pm Couple of minor points in response to PeA: Julie Burchill joined the NME precisely because they wanted someone younger to cover the burgeoning punk scene. "Hip young gunslinger wanted" they advertised. She got the job by sending them a sample review of Patti Smith's Horses album. And no, I'm not condoning taking your children out of education in most circumstances. Merely pointing out that that's what they did. In the end, in this argument we always come back to the irrefutable fact that other countries in developed Europe seem to get on perfectly well without our fractured and unfair educational system.

Another of my letters in today's Guardian under the heading "Public anger over private schools":
"The headmaster of Colfe's School says he would welcome a debate about the role of independent schools. The debate is simple. As long as rightwing governments continue to close state school playing fields, cut the education budget to below first world standards and generally make life difficult, those schools will founder. By contrast the well-funded private schools will provide even more state-of-the-art facilities and more middle class parents will bankrupt themselves to get their children into these institutions. The pleas from the Independent Schools Council about more bursaries and assisted places are just tokenism. The continued existence of the private fee-paying sector is a big part of what keeps this country in the educational and social dark ages. It's seventy years now since Churchill and RA Butler failed to grasp this particular nettle."
"in this argument we always come back to the irrefutable fact that other countries in developed Europe seem to get on perfectly well without our fractured and unfair educational system"

Really? Germany has a multi-partite system. So has Italy. Holland has state funded private schools. Spain's education is hardly a yardstick since nearly 30% of youngsters leave school with hardly any qualifications. In France, 15% of youngsters attend ecoles privees, and Macron is planning to open 25 boarding schools to cater for people of migrant backgrounds from the banlieues and other rural backwaters. Switzerland has a host of private and international schools etc.

The fundamental flaw in your last post was conflating issues of paid education, class and wealth, and using certain anecdotes selectively to suit your narrative, while not really moving out of the 70s and 80s.

Why do you assume that independent schools' call for bursaries and assisted places is tokenist...?
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by sejintenej »

attributed to freaky
"in this argument we always come back to the irrefutable fact that other countries in developed Europe seem to get on perfectly well without our fractured and unfair educational system"
So, a kid of thirteen is required to travel about 400 miles because that is where the state decides that she should go to school. Then, years later the school tries to contract for her as a minor to work for a company several hundred miles from the school and her home for lodging but no pay. Is this fractured and unfair?

That girl's French sister is my honorary neice.
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by loringa »

You don't actually want an answer to this question do you Mr Redshaw? All you really appear to want, and this is evident from all your various posts, is a soapbox from which to issue left-wing diatribes. Again and again you spout the same half-truths about education and never seem to listen to the replies. Others have said it far more eloquently than I ever could but here it is again: the United Kingdom is not the only country in the developed world to offer private education as an alternative to that provided by the state.

Now we've got that out of the way (until the next time) perhaps we should be looking at why we need an alternative to the maintained sector in all its various forms: local authority, academies etc? Up until 1965 (Circular 10/65) we had grammar schools throughout the nations of the United Kingdom that offered an excellent education, free of charge, to those who qualified academically to get in to one through the 11-plus exam. On the whole, grammar schools were a good thing and those parents who cared about their children's education went to great lengths to get their children in to one. Unfortunately, those who failed the 11-plus ended up in secondary-modern schools which, on the whole, were not so good.

So what did Mr Wilson and his government do - he got rid of the good bit (grammar schools) when surely the sane thing to have done was fix the bad bit (secondary modern schools)? Sure, the end result was equality for all but it was a move towards the lowest common denominator and not the highest common factor. By the time of the 1976 education act, grammar schools had largely been consigned to history and most folk went to comprehensive schools. These schools contained, and still contain, the the full range of abilities from the academically gifted to those who, quite frankly, were never likely to become more than barely literate or numerate at best.

Any experienced manager, whatever her field, will tell you that when you have a problem you fix the broken bits; you don't lower the standard over all so the bit that isn't working becomes the new standard. There are, of course, lots of good comprehensive schools but, until 2015 anyway, the so-called 'gold standard' in all these schools was 5 GCSEs at Grade C and above including maths and English. This is not a gold standard; it is the bare minimum with which to get any sort of half-way decent job or onto a basic level continuing education. It would not have been considered an acceptable standard for grammar schools where the equivalent of 6 GCSEs at Grade B including maths and English was (and broadly still is) roughly what was required for entry into the sixth form.

So, why did we lose the grammar schools? The system wasn't fair of course, no system ever is, but it did provide the opportunity for any academically gifted child to receive a first class education at no cost. Read Melvyn Bragg's 'The Soldier's Return' quartet if you have any doubt about this. It came about for political reasons when the left-wing ideas of social engineering so beloved by Mr Redshaw and his ilk were allowed to become policy and change the whole system for the worse to deliver equal (misery) for all.

Most teachers nowadays are rather wiser than the pioneers of the 1960s fortunately and the majority, if not all, comprehensives stream their year groups in most areas. Form groups, however, are invariably mixed ability as are some of the softer subjects: PHSE, RS etc. There is nothing more heart-breaking to see than the engaged pupil desperately trying to learn whilst all around her the class is descending into chaos. Academics such as Jo Boaler and Clare Lee have written extensively on the benefits for the less gifted of being in a mixed-ability group. The effect of this on the better pupils seems to be entirely ignored.

We have private education in the UK because the state system may meet the needs of the many but it doesn't meet those of the few, all of whom have the same right to be able to learn. Katherine sent her children to boarding schools because she had little choice owing to distance; I send mine so she get the education she needs. Left wing rants and half truths such as we get again and again from contributors like Mr Redshaw don't help in any way. If that privately educated, polytechnic drop out who currently leads the opposition ever gets into power we can look forward to a lot more of this sort of rhetoric and even fewer options for our children.

So, is private education overrated? Well, depends ... it may be but it may also be the only suitable option!
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Re: Is private education overrated?

Post by sejintenej »

Nice one, Andrew though I do think that you are being just a mite too modest.

The whole exam portfolio has been so downgraded that at GCSE it is totally worthless.

I had three children and three grandchildren go through the state sector system. One has several forms of dyslexia so his primary school headteacher decided "he will never be anyone so we (the school) is not going to spend money on him". At his secondary school he was putt aside to teach the backward pupils and got no help himself. Those are the schools which Rockfreak so loves.
My O level French teacher was rated as knowing nothing by a competent French speaker and teacher yet I got O level; by contrast my granddaughter gor GCSE French and knew nothing - she reckons she learned mor in one week talking to French kids.

We desperately need to reintroduce the old GCE O levels but make them harder - perhaps introduce the method behind my professional exams where (in one notorious exam) only 6% passed. Then we need to look at our universities; at present the entry standard is so low that students need to do a year to get them up to the earlier entry standard; only accept those who are up to the standard of the post - introductory year AND ensure that a graduate degree is a) worth something and b) is in a worthwhile subject. (Nice it might have been - I never saw it - but a BSc / BA degree in Marylin Monroe's navel or Star Wars is not worthwhile IMHO.

And now my hobbyhorse; some schools refuse to consider enploying people who have been adopted because they do not have the demanded birth certificate. GThat is the standard of staff in (at least) some state schools. FU**ing Morons who shouldn't be allowed near any, including even their own, kids themselves.

I suppose that puts me on the list of those to be shot as compiled by jerking Corbyn
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