Bursaries Shmursaries

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, but that's still CH related.

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loringa
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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by loringa » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:56 am

rockfreak wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:02 pm
Yes I accept the differences between directly state paid as against independent practitioners but if private schools are abolished where will they go? They'll be effectively state employees because there won't be any other work.
Yes except that private schools won't be abolished; that would be a step too far for even Corbyn and his Momentum cronies. The threat is the removal of charitable status which exempts them from charging VAT on their fees. Even if this happens, it is unlikely to affect Christ's Hospital as, despite the number of full fee-payers, the majority pay far less, whether on a bursary or a scholarship. For those schools unable to demonstrate their charitable nature, which may well be fewer than people like Mr Redshaw like to think, fees will obviously increase.

Some, though by no means all, of these schools will inevitably go to the wall. Independent schools are a remarkably marginal business in many cases even with charitable status. The rest will continue just with only the children of somewhat richer parents than at present. Most people I know who send their children to independent schools make significant sacrifices to do so, but the imposition of VAT could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The outcome: fewer independent schools undoubtedly but those that remain would be taking children of significantly wealthier parents, thereby further increasing the gap between rich and poor and limiting the opportunities for those kids involved. Of course a percentage of the teachers from the schools that close will return to the state system, some will not. Possibly some of the schools that close will transfer to the state system; there are examples of this, for example, in Bristol: Colston Girls' School, and St Ursula's for a start. A substantial number of school buildings and a percentage of teachers, however, will undoubtedly be lost to education in the round. This will increase the stress on the state schools where the displaced pupils and, more significantly, the next generation who might have gone to an independent school but now won't, end up.

There is one thing on pretty much everyone involved in education agree: very large class sizes are a bad thing. They adversely affect the education of the pupils and increase the stress and workload on the teachers. This is just one of the inevitable outcomes of any decision to remove charitable status from independent schools. Another is that an influx of previously privately educated children to any school is likely to overload the higher sets. If you want a decent grade (6 - 9) at GCSE in any of these schools then you definitely need to be in the higher sets. Though brighter pupils in mixed ability sets tend to raise the standard of the lower performing it is invariably to the detriment of the brighter. The effect will thus cascade down the school; pupils who fall out of the higher sets and into the lower will do less well as a consequence of any pupils joining their school from independent schools.

Now if you are an independently educated Trotskyite like Mr Corbyn (or Mr Redshaw for that matter), none of this is important. Application of Socialist dogma is all that matters and this is a policy that looks good on paper. Why should the better off get any benefits from the State; their job is to pay the taxes not benefit from them? Unfortunately the reality is likely to be somewhat different. The stress on our already creaking state education system will be increased in a number of areas and the overall quality will diminish. I have no doubt that a Corbyn government will increase education funding but recent history seems to suggest that most of this will end up in new buildings rather than more teachers and other staff.

At the end of the day,discussions on education tend to come down to articles of faith. I believe in a degree of parental choice and that independent schools are, in general a good, rather than a bad, thing; many others do not. It is not, however, quite such a simple argument as it might first appear.

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Otter » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:50 am

If anyone's interested, there is a good-natured debate going on on the Old Blues Facebook site about this Labour proposal. Some interesting and salient points made from all sides. Would copy the link but FB blocked here at work! :shock:

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Pe.A » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 am

Otter wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:50 am
If anyone's interested, there is a good-natured debate going on on the Old Blues Facebook site about this Labour proposal. Some interesting and salient points made from all sides. Would copy the link but FB blocked here at work! :shock:
This article in London's Evening Standard was quite good

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standa ... html%3famp
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loringa
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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by loringa » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am

Pe.A wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 am

This article in London's Evening Standard was quite good

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standa ... html%3famp
Thank you for posting this; it makes most interesting reading. If the state sector was universally excellent then we wouldn't need the independent sector in anything like the same way as we currently do. Getting rid of the latter most definitely would not lead to the former, however attractive a soundbite it may appear to Mr Corbyn's supporters.

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Pe.A » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:50 pm

loringa wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am
Pe.A wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 am

This article in London's Evening Standard was quite good

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standa ... html%3famp
Thank you for posting this; it makes most interesting reading. If the state sector was universally excellent then we wouldn't need the independent sector in anything like the same way as we currently do. Getting rid of the latter most definitely would not lead to the former, however attractive a soundbite it may appear to Mr Corbyn's supporters.
And there's an article in today's Times which estimates around 80,000 teachers in the state sector top up their pay packet by charging for private tuition for those who can afford it...

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by J.R. » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:28 pm

Pe.A wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:50 pm
loringa wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am
Pe.A wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:22 am

This article in London's Evening Standard was quite good

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standa ... html%3famp
Thank you for posting this; it makes most interesting reading. If the state sector was universally excellent then we wouldn't need the independent sector in anything like the same way as we currently do. Getting rid of the latter most definitely would not lead to the former, however attractive a soundbite it may appear to Mr Corbyn's supporters.
And there's an article in today's Times which estimates around 80,000 teachers in the state sector top up their pay packet by charging for private tuition for those who can afford it...
That was happening in the 1950's.

My maths teacher at primary school gave me private tuition after failing maths on my CH entry exam.

Mind you - More than a bucket-full of water has passed under the bridge since then !
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by Pe.A » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:36 pm

J.R. wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:28 pm
Pe.A wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:50 pm
loringa wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 am


Thank you for posting this; it makes most interesting reading. If the state sector was universally excellent then we wouldn't need the independent sector in anything like the same way as we currently do. Getting rid of the latter most definitely would not lead to the former, however attractive a soundbite it may appear to Mr Corbyn's supporters.
And there's an article in today's Times which estimates around 80,000 teachers in the state sector top up their pay packet by charging for private tuition for those who can afford it...
That was happening in the 1950's.

My maths teacher at primary school gave me private tuition after failing maths on my CH entry exam.

Mind you - More than a bucket-full of water has passed under the bridge since then !
My point was aimed at the notion that if independent schools were removed, it would mean that parents couldn't choose to pay for their children's education. Eradicating independent schools is a lazy solution to a complicated problem

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by rockfreak » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:57 pm

In reply to Loringa, the state sector is struggling precisely because it's being deliberately and cynically starved of cash by a right wing government. Teachers and parents having to pitch in to help with classroom duties and cleaning. The reason of course is that so many of those in positions of power today send their children to the private schools so they have no incentive to improve the state sector. Points made by one of my recent letters in the Guardian. Indeed, in that particular section of the letters page was one from the head of a state school who quantified the reduction in funding per pupil in recent years and then added in the figure including inflation and calculated an actual 30% reduction in funding over about a five-year period.
As I've said before on the Unofficial site, Christ's Hospital and the other private schools are in a privileged position because they don't have to take from the most difficult sections of society and they can exclude if they want to. The locals councils still have a duty to educate difficult pupils even though their powers to run education these days are actually limited. Responsibility without power, to invert Stanley Baldwin's jibe about the press. Where are the Old Blues like Michael Marland who in my day went into the state system (at an early time in the Comprehensive experiment) and made a name for himself as an education guru (developing pastoral care in the state sector) and indeed as a much-respected head of a tough school in North London.

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Re: Bursaries Shmursaries

Post by loringa » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:05 am

rockfreak wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:57 pm
In reply to Loringa, the state sector is struggling precisely because it's being deliberately and cynically starved of cash by a right wing government. Teachers and parents having to pitch in to help with classroom duties and cleaning. The reason of course is that so many of those in positions of power today send their children to the private schools so they have no incentive to improve the state sector.
Do you actually believe the stuff you write or are you just trying to provoke a response? If the latter then you are doing very well, but if it is the former then your world is obviously very different from mine!

Why would any government of whatever political hue deliberately choose to underfund education? It's irrelevant where they choose to send their own kids; the future performance of the economy as well as their own performance at the next general election will depend on how well the public perceives they have discharged their duties whilst in office, and education, like health, is an area that people care about. Moreover, with welfare taking more than 30% of all government expenditure, the only real way to bring it down is to reduce the demand placed upon it which, in turn, depends largely on an educated workforce. We currently spend more than £100 billion on education which is the third highest spending department. I think we should spend more but it will always be a question of priorities. I have little more affection for the Conservative Party than you do but I really don't think the debate is moved forward by comments such as those you make above.
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