Brexit

Anything that doesn't fit anywhere else, but that's still CH related.

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scrub
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Re: Brexit

Post by scrub »

First up, there is no such thing as a remainer anymore and it stopped being a viable descriptor when Article 50 was activated. We're all leavers now, regardless of our feelings towards it, and we have to deal with what is rather than what isn't. Secondly, and personally speaking, I don't think I've advocated for disregarding the result, even though I've been fairly vocal about why I dislike it. Calling it advisory one day, then "the legally binding will of the people" the next is massively and undeniably disingenuous, but here we are and so it goes. That's all I'll say on that particular aspect of it.

Anyway, there's a huge overlap of people who campaigned for Scotland to remain and those who campaigned for the UK to leave, so I suspect it would prove informative to canvass them on the same question.

In the interests of fairness, as long as a Scottish referendum, and the campaigning around it, was held to exactly the same standards and accountability as the EU one, then I'd have no problem with the result, whichever way it goes. Same goes for an Irish reunification poll.

Would I be happy to see the break-up of the UK? To be honest, I'm fairly ambivalent about it.

As an aside, both Scotland and NI voted to REMAIN by more than 52:48, so you could argue that if we are going to fully respect the 2016 referendum result, the option for them to decide whether to leave the UK and rejoin the EU/Ireland should have been granted when the UK officially left the EU in January. Again though, here we are and so it goes.
ThB 89-91, PeA 93-96
rockfreak
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Re: Brexit

Post by rockfreak »

Foureyes wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:27 pm Rockfreak says:
"Foureyes, while you regale us with tales of your cultural Grand Tour of Europe you neglect to say why you are opposed to Brexit?"

I must be missing something here, because I thought that I had been quite clear that I voted for (repeat FOR) Brexit, so why that has changed to 'opposed' I know not.

Concerning the 'Grand Tour', the point I was trying to make is that I have lived in these countries, got to know the local people, and travelled around. I am not saying that I did not like the people or fail to respect them - far from it, I have met some charming, kind and intelligent people - but that does not mean to say that I wish to share a political union with them.

And, by the way, I have never been to Venice.

David :shock:

Sorry Foureyes. Typo there. I meant to type FOR Brexit. So the rest of my post wouldn't have made any sense. Many years out of journalism. I'd have picked that one up years ago, or a colleague would have picked it up and said "what the hell are you talking about?"
sejintenej
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Re: Brexit

Post by sejintenej »

time please wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:42 pm
I am not convinced that communities were kept going and schools open, shops trading etc solely as you seem to believe thanks to British money. And why should the British residents disappear after Brexit? If they were living in the place before Brexit they have the right to stay. The system is the same in every EU land including England. Claiming the right to stay on after Brexit is both easy and generous.

England is not Rule Brittania or Cool Brittania! It is an over populated island that spends most of the time longing backwards instead of looking forward.
I can only write about places where I lived and no, the system is apparently not the same across the EU. The only restriction where I lived in the Aude was that if you stayed there more than 182 days a year you were supposed to join the French health service and register for French tax. That said, nobody checked on how long you were there - I know of British people who were even elected to the councils and of one British mayor. Of course we had to pay rates, electric bills etc - the norms.
I even heard talk that in one Midi village famous for its cheeses all the French moved out leaving a solitary English family; we had a totally deserted village a mile from us because the young French were moving to the big centres where there were jobs. Apart from agriculture the major industry in our area was making parts for Airbus. Down at the coast there was 6 weeks a year tourism. Taking into account that if you had a job for a week in the year you were deemed employed, the Aude had over 20% unemployment rate and despite Airbus the Ariege was not much better.
Why should the British disappear? That is up to them but it is what I am hearing from people who are/were there.

As to Britain being overpopulated; look at Hong Kong and I have to wonder about India. OK so perhaps we could do with 50 million fewer but whom do you elect to choose those to be put down?
Monday is one helluva way to spend one-seventh of your life.
Foureyes
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Re: Brexit

Post by Foureyes »

rockfreak writes: "Many years out of journalism. I'd have picked that one up years ago, or a colleague would have picked it up and said "what the hell are you talking about?"

As one ex-journo to another, apology accepted. We've all been there!

David :shock:
eucsgmrc
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Re: Brexit

Post by eucsgmrc »

scrub wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:46 pm As an aside, both Scotland and NI voted to REMAIN by more than 52:48, so you could argue that if we are going to fully respect the 2016 referendum result, the option for them to decide whether to leave the UK and rejoin the EU/Ireland should have been granted when the UK officially left the EU in January. Again though, here we are and so it goes.
You remember when we were being assured that Northern Ireland's problems could easily be solved by a "frictionless border"? That set me wondering whether a frictionless border WITHIN a state might be even simpler than a frictionless border BETWEEN states. Both sides of the border being "under the same management", it would surely be possible to settle arguments and sort out problems quickly.

So - why not leave Scotland and Northern Ireland on one side of this frictionless border, and still in some ways integrated with the EU, while England and Wales would be on the "fully brexited" side? That would have respected everybody's choices in the referendum. And it wouldn't treat Northern Ireland differently from all the rest of the UK.

But of course it was a silly idea, wasn't it?
John Wexler
Col A 1954-62
sejintenej
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Re: Brexit

Post by sejintenej »

eucsgmrc wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:01 pm You remember when we were being assured that Northern Ireland's problems could easily be solved by a "frictionless border"? That set me wondering whether a frictionless border WITHIN a state might be even simpler than a frictionless border BETWEEN states. Both sides of the border being "under the same management", it would surely be possible to settle arguments and sort out problems quickly.

So - why not leave Scotland and Northern Ireland on one side of this frictionless border, and still in some ways integrated with the EU, while England and Wales would be on the "fully brexited" side? That would have respected everybody's choices in the referendum. And it wouldn't treat Northern Ireland differently from all the rest of the UK.

But of course it was a silly idea, wasn't it?
John; I can't speak for Scotland but I am from the Republic (by blood and family) and Belfast having lived there and also I have blood and family there. IF ever the two halves joined the bloodbath would make the Feinians/IRA look like kids at a picnic. Certainly not frictionless.
Monday is one helluva way to spend one-seventh of your life.
loringa
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Re: Brexit

Post by loringa »

Well it looks like the Prime Minister has failed to secure a deal of any sorts and we will reach the EOTP with no agreements in place. The oven ready deal seems to have been more of an over ready turkey but I don't imagine Mr Johnson will be dwelling on that too much. So I would like to extend my thanks personally to everyone who voted for Brexit, to those Tory Party members who allowed Mr Johnson into power, and to Momentum, Mr Corbyn and the the loony left who left the country with no alternative to voting in a Tory Government.

Mr Blair, along with his brother-in-arms Mr Bush Jr, managed to destroy the status quo ante in the Middle East, wrecking first Iraq, then Libya, Syria next and now Yemen through their hubris, displacing millions and causing the biggest refugee crisis since the Second World War. The actions of first Mr Cameron and now Mr Johnson are trashing our reputation and status in the world, destroying our economy, alienating our friends and allies, and making us a laughing stock. The French will now open their borders and allow hundreds of thousands of migrants through, putting ever-greater pressure on our public services at a time when they will be stretched to the utmost coping with mass unemployment and increasing poverty.

I am actually quite proud to be British, or at least I was. On the whole we are a tolerant lot I think; we never embraced Fascism or Communism; Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are not as pronounced here as in most of Europe, we were a bit slow in emancipating women and decriminalising homosexuality but we've made fair progress compared with much of the world. We criminalised the slave trade before anyone else and then made huge efforts to impose this prohibition and, whatever you may personally think of the British Empire, world peace was maintained for a century under the Pax Britannica. So what the **** did we do to deserve politicians such as Blair and Johnson?

... and where on earth do we go from here?
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Ajarn Philip
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Re: Brexit

Post by Ajarn Philip »

^^Andrew, this seems an appropriate moment to wish you and all forum members a very merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Phil Underwood Ma A Col A Mid B 69-75
Katharine
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Re: Brexit

Post by Katharine »

Andrew, I wish we still had a like button, I'd have pressed it for your post.
Katharine Dobson (Hills) 6.14, 1959 - 1965
Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!
rockfreak
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Re: Brexit

Post by rockfreak »

All this goes back to what I've long said that the modern day Tory party has now been taken over by a bunch of mischief-making, rock-throwing, rightwing anarchists who bear no resemblance to the idea of Burkean one-nation conservatism as first defined in the early 19th century as a hedge against violent revolution which was scaring the pants off the stablished order across Europe. Dominic Cummings is a very good example of the new young Turks.

Leftwing anarchists tend to be idealistic but naive. They believe that you can do away with security services and run the country like one giant hippie commune, arranging everything by a show of hands. Rightwing anarchists are neither idealistic or naive. They have an agenda. Small state, low tax, deregulate, privatise, slash product safety standards, environmental standards, workers' rights, allow tax havens to flourish, dismiss homelessness and food banks as the result of the feckless people rather than the system. These shysters have been weedling away below ground for several decades to try and fracture the social democratic consensus that was largely accepted for three decades after the war. The Institute for Economic Affairs, the Adam Smith Institute (most of whom have never read a word of Adam Smith), the Centre for Policy Studies, Policy Exchange. All these bodies function on large donations of corporate and financial gifts, try to pass themselves off as think tanks, and are very cagey about revealing their sponsors. You will sometimes see their alleged research quoted in the rightwing press as if it's gospel. They even crop up on the BBC now and then, unquestioned as to their origins. These people and their fellow travellers are the ones that are trying to push us off the cliff into offshore tax-haven status in the North Sea. Of course when the job is done they themselves will decamp to a tax haven - although not this one I imagine.
Pe.A
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pe.A »

Foureyes wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:08 pm Avon says: "I do like to think that somewhere there is indeed a record of who voted what. In future years it can be used to pillory the ignorant, racist, sheeple who voted leave, and perhaps to ensure them lesser degrees of citizenship. No forgiveness, just a permanent record to ensure I know who my social, moral and intellectual enemies are."

OK, Mr Bell, I find that extremely objectionable and take serious personal offence. I voted for Brexit and am proud that I did so. Just for the record, I have lived in Austria, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands, in all of which I made local friends. I speak German (albeit not as well now as I used to), read German documents and poetry, and have a reasonable knowledge of German and European history. I have travelled in Germany, France, Russia, Austria, Italy and Cyprus, and enjoyed all of them.

I also object, very strongly, to being described as 'racist', which is a ridiculous charge in this instance, since the major population groups in all EU countries are ethnic Europeans. It is also particularly offensive to me, for reasons I shall not explain in a public forum.

Anyway, with all that background and after very careful consideration and discussion, I voted for Brexit, and find Mr Bell's language very offensive.

David Miller
Just curious, but speaking as honestly as you can, if you could turn back time, would you have voted to leave...?
Pe.A
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pe.A »

Foureyes wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:47 pm Let me ask the Remainers a question.
Suppose in 2-3 years time there is a second Referendum in Scotland on Scottish independence and the results are: For Independence - 52%, Against - 48%. Would you then argue that it should NOT be granted, for the reasons you have deployed for disregarding the UK-wide referendum on Brexit?
David :shock:
i think i read somewhere that 60% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK. If they chose to be independent, i cannot imagine once that is done they would meet the minimum requirements to join the EU...
Pe.A
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pe.A »

loringa wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:49 pm Well it looks like the Prime Minister has failed to secure a deal of any sorts and we will reach the EOTP with no agreements in place. The oven ready deal seems to have been more of an over ready turkey but I don't imagine Mr Johnson will be dwelling on that too much. So I would like to extend my thanks personally to everyone who voted for Brexit, to those Tory Party members who allowed Mr Johnson into power, and to Momentum, Mr Corbyn and the the loony left who left the country with no alternative to voting in a Tory Government.

Mr Blair, along with his brother-in-arms Mr Bush Jr, managed to destroy the status quo ante in the Middle East, wrecking first Iraq, then Libya, Syria next and now Yemen through their hubris, displacing millions and causing the biggest refugee crisis since the Second World War. The actions of first Mr Cameron and now Mr Johnson are trashing our reputation and status in the world, destroying our economy, alienating our friends and allies, and making us a laughing stock. The French will now open their borders and allow hundreds of thousands of migrants through, putting ever-greater pressure on our public services at a time when they will be stretched to the utmost coping with mass unemployment and increasing poverty.

I am actually quite proud to be British, or at least I was. On the whole we are a tolerant lot I think; we never embraced Fascism or Communism; Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia are not as pronounced here as in most of Europe, we were a bit slow in emancipating women and decriminalising homosexuality but we've made fair progress compared with much of the world. We criminalised the slave trade before anyone else and then made huge efforts to impose this prohibition and, whatever you may personally think of the British Empire, world peace was maintained for a century under the Pax Britannica. So what the **** did we do to deserve politicians such as Blair and Johnson?

... and where on earth do we go from here?
My inkling has always been closer links with the US, perhaps even an economic union...?
loringa
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Re: Brexit

Post by loringa »

Well, it's day 12 of life after the EOTP. Things are certainly more difficult with Northern Ireland especially suffering shortages on the supermarket shelves but there also seem to be increased queues at the ports with loads being turned back on both sides of the Channel. Things have definitely become far more difficult for British residents in the EU and thus presumably for EU residents in the UK. Lots of Brits have come back to live in the UK; I wonder how they are dealing with healthcare for example as they won't be eligible to use the NHS, at least in the short term. I was amused but saddened by the news that some Brits entering the EU were having their sandwiches seized by customs to prevent contamination of the food chain with nasties such as foot and mouth. As a third party we have to follow all the rules so presumably the same applies to us if we holiday in the EU. We might be allowed duty-free but presumably no saussicon, jambon or foie gras. So, once again, I ask the Brexiteers; when do we enter the sunlit uplands? We could really do with the promised £350 million a week for the NHS right now!
scrub
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Re: Brexit

Post by scrub »

Phytosanitary checks were inevitable once the decision was made to leave the CU, at least the EU doesn't use the same rules as Australia. The Dutch just took their ham sandwiches away, AQIS would dismantle everything and give you a very, very thorough search if you tried being an idiot about it. They are very, very dedicated to their job as Australia's first line of biosecurity.

More preparation time would have helped with this. Even if the TCA wasn't finalised, the outline of how borders would work again was not a complete unknown. Some businesses prepared for this as best they could, some didn't. Unfortunately for both groups, the government neither prepared for it (hiring and training more customs officials/testing systems) nor admitted it would be an issue. They just said (and some still do) that it would be business as normal and you wouldn't know the difference, in fact, it'll be better.

Personally, I'm just "thrilled" at the prospect of not knowing what forms I need to fill in and in how much detail to ensure that our the relocation of our household goods is as smooth as possible. When I moved here from Oz, I took a look at what I needed to fill in, then sold/donated/trashed 90% of my worldly possessions because it was too much of a hassle to bring anything other than books, CDs, kitchen gear, and a couple of bookcases over. People moving in and out of Switzerland are known to get rid of everything except a couple of suitcases of clothes because it's even more of a faff.
ThB 89-91, PeA 93-96
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