Brexit

[sejintenej]

Scrub
I note your replies but just a little something about some of your replies.

Do you ever watch the Parliament channel on TV? Politicians never bother to turn up. It is not part of the job description. Only in the House of Lords where they are paid to turn up (though I wonder if they find the benches comfy for a postbrandial snoze)
o
When did Britain ever have a commissioner in any committee of importance?

Yes, we do have a huge bloated incompetent bureaucracy made even worse by Labour and they have made Britain a difficult place to do business. Politicians incompetent? Probably but they have done a marvellous job at buggering up the country to suit the unions.

.At least outside the EU the politicians will have a free hand without the likes of mukkryon and the german wadducaler

[Avon]

OK, Mr Bell, I find that extremely objectionable and take serious personal offence. I voted for Brexit and am proud that I did so. Just for the record, I have lived in Austria, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands, in all of which I made local friends. I speak German (albeit not as well now as I used to), read German documents and poetry, and have a reasonable knowledge of German and European history. I have travelled in Germany, France, Russia, Austria, Italy and Cyprus, and enjoyed all of them.

I also object, very strongly, to being described as 'racist', which is a ridiculous charge in this instance, since the major population groups in all EU countries are ethnic Europeans. It is also particularly offensive to me, for reasons I shall not explain in a public forum.

Anyway, with all that background and after very careful consideration and discussion, I voted for Brexit, and find Mr Bell's language very offensive.

David Miller

I find Brexit offensive. Equally offensive is the continued self-delusion of leavers that this was a remotely logical enterprise. It was racist to the core, based on prejudices about Europe, and false, romantic conceits about the singular value of being British and not European.

Dog whistle politics dragged baby boomers, C2s Ds and Es to a profoundly flawed vote, the results of which will bind my generation and more importantly my children's generation long after we are gone and in the face of challenges which are global, not sovereign. I hope history is scathing to a generation that was either complicit or duped. Some legacy.

We are in a position where a dire, racist, illogical and retrograde proposition is in the hands of meritless peasants masquerading as politicians, chosen for no redeeming feature other than their loyalty to a fool. I'm pretty incandescent about that, I can't be quiescent.

So your comments are offensive to me. Was your post really 'I can't be a racist, some of my best friends are European.' Is that what your generation is telling itself? Man up and accept the premise of what you chose and its consequences.

[J.R.]

I'm fed up with Brexit. Brexit, Brexit.
I don't even watch the news now. ! GET ON WITH IT !!!

[sejintenej]

I'm fed up with Brexit. Brexit, Brexit.
I don't even watch the news now. ! GET ON WITH IT !!!

I see I am now denied the ability to clap you. Consider it done.

[loringa]

I'm fed up with Brexit. Brexit, Brexit.
I don't even watch the news now. ! GET ON WITH IT !!!

John - you voted for Brexit as you have proudly informed us on this forum. You are thus, in part, responsible, for what is currently going on, something that was utterly inevitable and wholly foreseeable (and foreseen by many of us). You may be fed up with it but you cannot just wash your hands of it; it's what you wanted!

As for David's comments about EU Commissioners: what about Baroness Ashton of Upholland who served as High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, effectively the EU's Foreign Minister?

Unless and until we reach the promised sunlit uplands we are never going to achieve consensus that leaving the EU is a good thing. Those of you who voted for it need to keep the faith because nothing at all that has happened since has gone anyway to making me, and most of us who didn't, change our minds that it is the worst thing to happen to the United Kingdom in a century.

Now, I respect the result of the referendum though it should never have been held in my opinion, but I see my dd's opportunities diminishing with every day that goes by as a direct result and I am starting to get really p155ed off. Than God she has Australian citizenship.

[Ajarn Philip]

I'm fed up with Brexit. Brexit, Brexit.

This is probably not the best thread for you then...

I hope history is scathing to a generation that was either complicit or duped. Some legacy.

I agree with much of what you say, Avon, particularly that Brexit is a Bad Thing, as will undoubtedly be pointed out in the future publication "2016 and all that", but is it all down to generation? I assume you're talking about the over-60s (of which I'm one, but not by much...), but I'm pretty damn sure that there are plenty of 40-somethings and below who voted for Brexit, without whose contribution it would never have scraped through, and plenty more who didn't vote at all.

I think there were more factors than age at play in the referendum result. First and foremost is that few Brits actually thought the vote could possibly go that way, causing many of the uncommitted not to vote and encouraging others to make a protest vote.

I find Brexit offensive. Equally offensive is the continued self-delusion of leavers that this was a remotely logical enterprise. It was racist to the core, based on prejudices about Europe, and false, romantic conceits about the singular value of being British and not European.

Racist? Possibly, but it's such a misused, and overused, accusation these days. Perhaps xenophobic would be more appropriate? But I agree with the rest of your description.

Something that has never ceased to surprise me is the capacity of widely travelled and expat westerners (not just Brits) to cling to their innate prejudices, usually without recognising the fact.

Mark Twain wrote: “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.”

You'd think so, wouldn't you, but sadly not true, at least in my experience.

[Ajarn Philip]

... And I meant to add that while we get the opportunity to correct electoral errors every 4-5 years, this referendum seems to be final (unlike the Scottish independence referendum, which would undoubtedly have been final if the vote had been 'yes'), although I have absolutely no doubt that if the same question was asked now, the remainers would win by a country mile. In fact, that would probably have been the case at any stage after the referendum results were published.

[rockfreak]

Foureyes, while you regale us with tales of your cultural Grand Tour of Europe you neglect to say why you are opposed to Brexit? Sovereignty perhaps? No more Polish plumbers or Eastern European fruit pickers? The ability to pollute our water to worse than EU standards? More used needles on our beaches? Lots of lorries held up at Dover and Felixstowe gumming up the roads for miles around? Less out-of-season fresh fruit (or at least more expensive) in Tesco? When you talked to these Europeans that you met on your travels what did they think of the idea of our Brexit? Were they enthusiastically in favour or did these subtle, cosmopolitan Venetians think that the British (or maybe just the English) were a bunch of insular rednecks whose main contribution to European culture is throwing up in the gutters of European cities while following their favourite football team?

Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned rednecks again. It'll get loringa going.

[Foureyes]

Rockfreak says:
"Foureyes, while you regale us with tales of your cultural Grand Tour of Europe you neglect to say why you are opposed to Brexit?"

I must be missing something here, because I thought that I had been quite clear that I voted for (repeat FOR) Brexit, so why that has changed to 'opposed' I know not.

Concerning the 'Grand Tour', the point I was trying to make is that I have lived in these countries, got to know the local people, and travelled around. I am not saying that I did not like the people or fail to respect them - far from it, I have met some charming, kind and intelligent people - but that does not mean to say that I wish to share a political union with them.

And, by the way, I have never been to Venice.

David

[sejintenej]

Rockfreak says:
"Foureyes, while you regale us with tales of your cultural Grand Tour of Europe you neglect to say why you are opposed to Brexit?"

I must be missing something here, because I thought that I had been quite clear that I voted for (repeat FOR) Brexit, so why that has changed to 'opposed' I know not.
Concerning the 'Grand Tour', the point I was trying to make is that I have lived in these countries, got to know the local people, and travelled around. I am not saying that I did not like the people or fail to respect them - far from it, I have met some charming, kind and intelligent people - but that does not mean to say that I wish to share a political union with them.
And, by the way, I have never been to Venice.

and rockfreak wrote

Were they enthusiastically in favour or did these subtle, cosmopolitan Venetians think that the British (or maybe just the English) were a bunch of insular rednecks whose main contribution to European culture is throwing up in the gutters of European cities while following their favourite football team?

Foureyes; you shouldn't assume that because someone spent a little time at CH they have literacy or sense.

Like you I also have travelled around, worked and lived in several continental European countries (mainly west of the Iron Wall) including Venice. I also have friends with those nationalities in several of those countries (including several girlfriends **) ranging from local farmers to titled aristocrats. The vast majority were extremely pleasant though appreciation of the British varied. Some enjoyed the fact that it was British money which kept their communities going, their schools open, their shops still trading. Others such as the highly educated ones felt we had much in common with themselves. The concept of Brexit was never mentioned in my presence but a local newspaper used a full double page bemoaning the loss of the British residents who had prevented the town from disappearing into the abyss.
If it were so intended, which I doubt, the only negative mention of British involvement was by a French neighbour who once mentioned that the British ruled Aquitaine

** who include the sister of the captain of a French national rugby team who beat England - in England!

Rockfreak OK so there exist the great unwashed from Britain just as other countries export their unwashed football thugs to Britain. Ours are simply meeting like with like. Wot ya goin do abaat it then? I don't approve of either in the same way as I intensely dislike some paper writers and contributors

[time please]

sejintenej wrote: "Like you I also have travelled around, worked and lived in several continental European countries (mainly west of the Iron Wall) including Venice. I also have friends with those nationalities in several of those countries (including several girlfriends **) ranging from local farmers to titled aristocrats. The vast majority were extremely pleasant though appreciation of the British varied. Some enjoyed the fact that it was British money which kept their communities going, their schools open, their shops still trading. Others such as the highly educated ones felt we had much in common with themselves. The concept of Brexit was never mentioned in my presence but a local newspaper used a full double page bemoaning the loss of the British residents who had prevented the town from disappearing into the abyss."

You sound a bit pompous here in my mind.

I am not convinced that communities were kept going and schools open, shops trading etc solely as you seem to believe thanks to British money. And why should the British residents disappear after Brexit? If they were living in the place before Brexit they have the right to stay. The system is the same in every EU land including England. Claiming the right to stay on after Brexit is both easy and generous.

England is not Rule Brittania or Cool Brittania! It is an over populated island that spends most of the time longing backwards instead of looking forward.

[loringa]

Well, it seems our ports are now at breaking point as a result of Covid delays and pressures so I suspect that the additional pressures of a no-deal Brexit may tip them over the edge. I note that Tesco and other retailers are predicting 3 to 5% price increases and shortages in this event. No doubt the Brexiteers will say that this pain is worth it to 'regain our sovereignty'.

So a big thank you to Nigel and Arron, to Boris and Michael and the Tory Reform Group or whatever they call themselves. It looks like you and your supporters are going to be responsible for wrecking our country and ruining the lives of millions.

Whilst I sympathise with many of Avon's sentiments I am going to try and avoid using his somewhat intemperate language, however, I would like to see these characters held to account in some way. Perhaps there will be a Royal Commission in why the United Kingdom was destroyed to satisfy the hubris of a few power-mad xenophobes and 1950s throwbacks.

I really am somewhat annoyed!

[scrub]

I'm fed up with Brexit. Brexit, Brexit.
I don't even watch the news now. ! GET ON WITH IT !!!

You might want to swap the TV for a book and a big bottle of something, because it'll be an annoying part of the UK news and political landscape for at least a decade.

A lot of people will be trying to blame/credit it for everything they possibly can, which will be extremely tedious for almost everyone, regardless of their feelings towards it.

[Foureyes]

Let me ask the Remainers a question.
Suppose in 2-3 years time there is a second Referendum in Scotland on Scottish independence and the results are: For Independence - 52%, Against - 48%. Would you then argue that it should NOT be granted, for the reasons you have deployed for disregarding the UK-wide referendum on Brexit?
David

[Otter]

Let me ask the Remainers a question.
Suppose in 2-3 years time there is a second Referendum in Scotland on Scottish independence and the results are: For Independence - 52%, Against - 48%. Would you then argue that it should NOT be granted, for the reasons you have deployed for disregarding the UK-wide referendum on Brexit?
David

Being a Remainer doesn't automatically mean you think the referendum result should not be respected (although of course some do feel that way).

I voted remain and disagree with the outcome but accept it.

A difference in Scotland is that 16 and 17-year-olds can vote, i.e. more people who will be affected in the future by whatever the outcome is. There are now millions of people in their early 20s who had no say in Brexit and are mainly opposed to it but can't do anything about it. In terms of IndyRef demographics, the opposite to your scenario is the case, as younger people tend to favour independence. So it's difficult to compare the two.

Here's an interesting one from Switzerland - a referendum result was overturned by the Supreme Court because voters were misinformed/lied to. I see this as having huge parallels with Brexit. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... y-informed