Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:42 am How about now? Are you happy to have your children beaten by strangers? If no, at what specific date did ''then' become 'now'?

It doesn't apply now, so why are you getting excited...?

What specific date? The specific date that it was banned, i suppose...

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:08 am What specific date? The specific date that it was banned, i suppose...

So, what is right or wrong for corporal punishment is defined by place and time, rather like grooming, as you explained here:

https://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic. ... 27#p149627

Let's be clear, the only difference between grooming and seduction is the age of consent - I'm sure the techniques are remarkably similar. People have always fancied, and will always fancy 14/15 year old girls. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, it's the law of the land that counts. Before I get mobbed for that statement, if one checks the ages of consent across Europe they range from between 14-18 - and in a country like Spain, the age of consent up until 1999 was 13. It is what it is - make of that what you will.

So where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment point of view?

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:08 am What specific date? The specific date that it was banned, i suppose...

So, what is right or wrong for corporal punishment is defined by place and time, rather like grooming, as you explained here:

https://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic. ... 27#p149627

Let's be clear, the only difference between grooming and seduction is the age of consent - I'm sure the techniques are remarkably similar. People have always fancied, and will always fancy 14/15 year old girls. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, it's the law of the land that counts. Before I get mobbed for that statement, if one checks the ages of consent across Europe they range from between 14-18 - and in a country like Spain, the age of consent up until 1999 was 13. It is what it is - make of that what you will.

So where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment point of view?

This really is getting tiring.

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:55 am

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:59 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:08 am What specific date? The specific date that it was banned, i suppose...

So, what is right or wrong for corporal punishment is defined by place and time, rather like grooming, as you explained here:

https://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic. ... 27#p149627

Let's be clear, the only difference between grooming and seduction is the age of consent - I'm sure the techniques are remarkably similar. People have always fancied, and will always fancy 14/15 year old girls. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, it's the law of the land that counts. Before I get mobbed for that statement, if one checks the ages of consent across Europe they range from between 14-18 - and in a country like Spain, the age of consent up until 1999 was 13. It is what it is - make of that what you will.

So where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment point of view?

This really is getting tiring.

Why tiring, Pe.A?
Where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment, or grooming/seduction, point of view? Pick a place and decade - to give people a sense of what you prefer for your children. Feel free to be as honest as you want.

TMF wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:29 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:55 am

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:59 pm

So, what is right or wrong for corporal punishment is defined by place and time, rather like grooming, as you explained here:

https://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic. ... 27#p149627


So where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment point of view?

This really is getting tiring.

Why tiring, Pe.A?
Where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment, or grooming/seduction, point of view? Pick a place and decade - to give people a sense of what you prefer for your children. Feel free to be as honest as you want.

Well, considering that no-one can actually go back in time, it's just a very silly and badly thought-out question.

But in general terms, i should point out that it's a historical truism that you can't really interpret and judge the past in terms of modern values and standards.

Besides, i reckon i could have benefited from the odd kick up the arse when i was a CH, or at least the threat of it...

Detentions weren't really a punishment - more of an inconvenience.

Pe.A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:56 am

TMF wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:29 pm

Pe.A wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:55 am

This really is getting tiring.

Why tiring, Pe.A?
Where and when would you prefer to send your children to school from a corporal punishment, or grooming/seduction, point of view? Pick a place and decade - to give people a sense of what you prefer for your children. Feel free to be as honest as you want.

Well, considering that no-one can actually go back in time, it's just a very silly and badly thought-out question.

But in general terms, i should point out that it's a historical truism that you can't really interpret and judge the past in terms of modern values and standards.

Besides, i reckon i could have benefited from the odd kick up the arse when i was a CH, or at least the threat of it...

Detentions weren't really a punishment - more of an inconvenience.

Pe.A you can and do interpret and judge in terms of very modern values and standards. Here is an example of your contemporary interpretive judgment:

Let's be clear, the only difference between grooming and seduction is the age of consent - I'm sure the techniques are remarkably similar.

As L P Hartley wrote in The Go-Between, 'the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there'. I find this increasingly coming to mind as we collectively reassess the past, particularly as it seems that modern commentators tend to see everything in terms of black and white: it was either entirely good, or entirely bad, no room for a more nuanced assessment. To a degree, I see the corporal punishment argument in this context. TMF clearly sees it as wholly bad and I am not unsympathetic to that viewpoint, on the other hand, it never did me any harm though I was no more than an occasional recipient. I am also not sure it was 'good' for the perpetrators, especially those 'enthusiasts' of whom there appear to have been some in the past, though not Ken Grimshaw.

Nonetheless we no have a problem in society as a whole and within education in particular. We actually have very few effective deterrents available to teachers (and even parents) in order to ensure our young people behave in what we would see as an acceptable manner. As any parent or any teacher knows, if a child doesn't want to do something it is incredibly difficult the make them. I most certainly would not advocate a return to corporal punishment but it did provide an additional tool in the golf bag of options available. At the time, increasingly in the further-off past and decreasingly as we approached 1986 when it was made illegal in the maintained sector and subsequently in independent schools (1998 I think), it was seen as a useful tool. Whether or not society in the round was the better for it, that may be a matter of opinion.

loringa wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:23 am As L P Hartley wrote in The Go-Between, 'the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there'.

Hence 1990s departures to Thailand and points East, pursuing a burning desire to 'educate' more widely, I suppose.

In my time, late 1970s, the great three of the Manual School were Mr Wyncoll, who made a valiant effort at teaching me woodwork, I know I exasperated him with my abysmal lack of skill, but he hid it fairly well. Poor chap suffered from the stress of the job later IIRC, he was also a CCF Major.

Mr Stratton a great no-nonsense metalwork teacher who managed to inculcate some basics in my metalwork, main memories his explaining the hazards of clinker and telling us not to snigger at a ****** sword and explaining that a ****** was a '******' as it referred to a ill-behaved child who'd grown up without a father in the house, and 'Cherry' Perry whose catchphrase for technical drawing was '30 Degrees' as he taught us how to draw projections. Ken Grimshaw was a rather forbidding figure rumoured to be obsessed with catching smokers with his dog in tow. Looking back, he was doing people a favour.

The Art School I remember as rather Bohemian, but I don't recall actually learning anything or even doing anything there, except perhaps a messy bit of pottery. Mr Lane struck me as a decent chap though, with the challenge of enthusing us in Art.

MrEd wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:29 pm In my time, late 1970s, the great three of the Manual School were Mr Wyncoll, who made a valiant effort at teaching me woodwork, I know I exasperated him with my abysmal lack of skill, but he hid it fairly well. Poor chap suffered from the stress of the job later IIRC, he was also a CCF Major.

Mr Stratton a great no-nonsense metalwork teacher who managed to inculcate some basics in my metalwork, main memories his explaining the hazards of clinker and telling us not to snigger at a ****** sword and explaining that a ****** was a '******' as it referred to a ill-behaved child who'd grown up without a father in the house, and 'Cherry' Perry whose catchphrase for technical drawing was '30 Degrees' as he taught us how to draw projections. Ken Grimshaw was a rather forbidding figure rumoured to be obsessed with catching smokers with his dog in tow. Looking back, he was doing people a favour.

The Art School I remember as rather Bohemian, but I don't recall actually learning anything or even doing anything there, except perhaps a messy bit of pottery. Mr Lane struck me as a decent chap though, with the challenge of enthusing us in Art.

I remember all 4 extremely well: excellent teachers and decent blokes. there was also a Mr Williams who also taught metalwork IIRC but he never taught me and, of course, Mr Webb about whom far too much has already been said on this forum. Mr Grimshaw was an excellent craftsman; Mr Webb was not, and that showed in the results they obtained at O level. In my year all but one of us achieved A grades, and the only one who didn't got a B, his only O level I believe. I loved the Manual School; I largely had to give it up as a Dep and Grecian as there was too much else to do but they were my favourite lessons by a country mile. I was never actually very good but I really enjoyed my time there.

As for the Art School, not so much ...

And the Theatre, not for me!

Bringing it back to Ken Grimshaw, I remember him teaching me Techical Drawing for O Level and always appreciated his patience, although I expect I tried it near to his limit!
I have used my drawing 'skills' (not so hot) a number of times through my working life especially when I was running my own fabrication business.
I also learnt a lot towards this from PG Williams with whom I managed to do metalwork in every one of my 5 years at CH.
I enjoyed Mr Wyncol's woodwork lessons (my coffee table lasted over 40 years) and he let my twin and I have free rein to build our giant cage for Gerbils. More like a Gerbil block of flats!
For a couple of years Richard and I were involved with the printing club in the Manual School so we virtually lived in there in our free time. That was before the Press was moved into a purpose-made cubby-hole on the gallery of the Art School.
I can also remember the excitement of choosing and purchasing Airfix kits from J Perry's office, which was raised up on stilts. Part of my later Apprenticeship was in a factory where all the Foremen's office were raised in the same way!

Wow! Printing Club?!
I was involved in/ran The Gallows Press under Barnes in The Tube. Had the time of my life learning Letterpress Printing. Being able to read upside-down and back-to-front has stood be in good stead over the years!
Ken Grimshaw and Phil (PG) Williams were my teachers for Design A-Level. Ken was quite a hard task-master but appreciated good research into a subject, which again has been hugely beneficial to me. PGW on the other hand was quite a quiet fellow, but I had enormous respect for his technical abilities. He made all the hurdles for the school running track, for example!
Now what was the dog called? I know it loved chasing smokers!

SandysJ wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 5:18 am Bringing it back to Ken Grimshaw, I remember him teaching me Techical Drawing for O Level and always appreciated his patience, although I expect I tried it near to his limit!
I have used my drawing 'skills' (not so hot) a number of times through my working life especially when I was running my own fabrication business.

I cannot remember who I had for technical drawing but at least it got me another "O" level. Have I used it since - definitely. In France we did a lot of alterations to a near prehistoric farmhouse so planning permission was required - I did all my own drawings and they were accepted.