Black Lives Matter

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sejintenej
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

graham wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:56 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:36 pm

Incidentally, interesting to see that this conversation is being tracked by a US outfit.
Big brother is watching! Remember 1984
No one is calling for a ban on the employment of whites.
My reference was not to the USA at this moment. It referred directly to one large country and if the colour is changed to yellow then to at least one other.
If not enough qualified candidates are deemed to come from underrepresented groups, it provides a justification for deeming that the search has failed.
Wrong. IF a suitably qualified and acceptable subject is found then the search has succeeded. IF nobody of the required race has been available then that is not the fault of the searcher but of the education system and therefore the state/nation/system
From your response, I get the impression you are broadly in agreement that Affirmative Action is a good thing. Is that correct? If so, I think you broadly agree with the motivations of the Black Lives Matter movement. This whole conversation reminds me of many discussions about feminism. Many a man claims to support equal rights and opportunities for women but to not support the feminists. Being a feminist means you support equal rights and opportunities for women. :rolleyes:
I have employed the best individuals for the job available at the time. That has included females for whom there was no real glass ceiling. I write real because there was a glass ceiling if you were not the owner's relative BUT on several occasions, having put one it we had him sacked by the owner and outsiders were brought in.
In my last major job it might have been difficult for a female; there were competence qualifications, a language skill requirement and the need to travel - I reckoned on 500,000 miles in the air per year. Yes, one girl did fit but they were exceptionally rare.
When this is over ... what meeting do I attend first ... Weight Watchers or AA?

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Ajarn Philip
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Ajarn Philip »

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 pm
In my last major job it might have been difficult for a female; there were competence qualifications, a language skill requirement and the need to travel - I reckoned on 500,000 miles in the air per year. Yes, one girl did fit but they were exceptionally rare.
Which of those would have been difficult for a "female"?
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Katharine »

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 pm
In my last major job it might have been difficult for a female; there were competence qualifications, a language skill requirement and the need to travel - I reckoned on 500,000 miles in the air per year. Yes, one girl did fit but they were exceptionally rare.
I strongly object to that statement, did you find a suitable boy to do it? The level can’t have been very high if a youngster could be employed. Did you perhaps mean woman?

What competence skills you could possibly be looking for that are beyond the competence of the female of the species?

Could it possibly be that you thought a woman might have had childcare duties that couldn’t be supposedly fulfilled by a man? (with the obvious exception of giving birth and breast feeding, but that stage doesn’t last long)
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

Ajarn Philip wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:59 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 pm
In my last major job it might have been difficult for a female; there were competence qualifications, a language skill requirement and the need to travel - I reckoned on 500,000 miles in the air per year. Yes, one girl did fit but they were exceptionally rare.
Which of those would have been difficult for a "female"?
No home life, Travelling in countries where white females are at risk - in the top hotel BA crews considered it so dangerous that they ensured female cabin crew were escorted everywhere, working week in week out in a foreign language - sometimes two without the chance to use your own (You will understand what I am thinking), very long hours where "the job must be done withing tight deadlines", actually half a dozen varied functions.
When this is over ... what meeting do I attend first ... Weight Watchers or AA?

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Katharine »

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:28 pm
Ajarn Philip wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:59 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 pm
In my last major job it might have been difficult for a female; there were competence qualifications, a language skill requirement and the need to travel - I reckoned on 500,000 miles in the air per year. Yes, one girl did fit but they were exceptionally rare.
Which of those would have been difficult for a "female"?
No home life, Travelling in countries where white females are at risk - in the top hotel BA crews considered it so dangerous that they ensured female cabin crew were escorted everywhere, working week in week out in a foreign language - sometimes two without the chance to use your own (You will understand what I am thinking), very long hours where "the job must be done withing tight deadlines", actually half a dozen varied functions.
The only part of that I can accept is the section I have put in bold. I fail to see why any of the others are beyond the power of both capable men and women, and no I don’t know what you are thinking.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

Katharine wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:49 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:28 pm
[ Travelling in countries where white females are at risk - in the top hotel BA crews considered it so dangerous that they ensured female cabin crew were escorted everywhere,
The only part of that I can accept is the section I have put in bold. I fail to see why any of the others are beyond the power of both capable men and women, and no I don’t know what you are thinking.
answered by PM - Yes, somewhere there are people but there were many situations that, as a boss, I would not put subordinates into.
When this is over ... what meeting do I attend first ... Weight Watchers or AA?

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by graham »

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 pm
Incidentally, interesting to see that this conversation is being tracked by a US outfit.
Big brother is watching! Remember 1984
Are you sure you're not seeing my US IP address popping up? Anyways, everything on the internet is monitored - I'm not sure a bunch of former public school kids discussing systemic racism is cause for concern by anyone.
sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:42 pm
My reference was not to the USA at this moment. It referred directly to one large country and if the colour is changed to yellow then to at least one other.
1. Im afraid that without specifics, I am unable to divine the situation you refer to. I absolutely accept that prejudice and other forms of systemic racism exist in other countries. But, we've been talking about the Black Lives Matter movement, which is a US-based movement that has spread to other majority white countries and so perhaps i can coax you back on point?

2. I hope you are unaware of this, but folks of south east asian descent tend to find references to them as being "yellow" deeply offensive. The history of this term is rooted in racism and I would request you refrain from using it.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Katharine »

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:35 pm
Katharine wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:49 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:28 pm
[ Travelling in countries where white females are at risk - in the top hotel BA crews considered it so dangerous that they ensured female cabin crew were escorted everywhere,
The only part of that I can accept is the section I have put in bold. I fail to see why any of the others are beyond the power of both capable men and women, and no I don’t know what you are thinking.
answered by PM - Yes, somewhere there are people but there were many situations that, as a boss, I would not put subordinates into.
I don't know why you had to resort to pm when you started on on the open forum. Your message did not convince me of any reason for employing men rather than women - other than intrinsic dangers to white women. I trust that when you mention subordinates you are thinking of both men and women.
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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by sejintenej »

Katharine wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:42 am
I don't know why you had to resort to pm when you started on on the open forum. Your message did not convince me of any reason for employing men rather than women - other than intrinsic dangers to white women. I trust that when you mention subordinates you are thinking of both men and women.
[/quote]

yes. and some were i/c important departments overseeing men. For dealing with customers and branches we needed Sao Paulo Portuguese - one lady, a graduate, from Madeira, simply could not understand it. I already spoke one ,carioca (Rio de Janeiro) and had to relearn.
Thinking back I suspect we had more female than male staff
When this is over ... what meeting do I attend first ... Weight Watchers or AA?

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Pe.A »

AMP wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm
Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.

I
It's just badly phrased, I don't think you can view that as a racist incident.

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Pe.A »

graham wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:30 pm
AMP wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm
Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.
Ignorant, absolutely, as an event. The event itself may not be racist but it is a symptom of a racist society.
Rubbish. It was just badly phrased. I've received similar questions and my background, or rather my parents', is Mediterranean

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Pe.A »

graham wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:30 pm
AMP wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 pm
Ignorant, racist, both or neither?
I very recently attended a chinese burial in Harlow for a friend who was born and bred there.
Like all his siblings and cousins, he had been fluent in chinese and spoke english like any person born here.
"We was going to go to the seaside but it rained"
I was chatting to a very well meaning english couple and one of his cousins who is a black cab driver, when the wife asked him out of the blue
"Where do you originate from, which part of China?"
He looked startled but politely responded that he had been born in Harlow.
I bet he gets that sort of thing all the time.
Ignorant, absolutely, as an event. The event itself may not be racist but it is a symptom of a racist society.

As always, I preface with intent does not equal impact. The intent may well have been genuine curiosity but the impact is to say "you're not one of us". If the person asking the question has to ask, presumably they do not know the family well. And therefore they have no idea how many generations ago the various branches of this person's family moved to the UK or how many different places they came from. For all they know, this cab drivers ancestors may have been living in the UK for longer than their own. But, because he looks different and can speak another language, he is obviously from elsewhere.

This is one of those things where the person asking the question may well be well-intentioned but their impact is potentially harmful. Its the kind of topic that might come up in conversation with a close friend, in an appropriate context, but in the situation described its just dumb.
How is it potentially harmful?

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Pe.A »

graham wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:34 pm
Getting back to title track, David I posted my definition of systemic racism and I maintain this is a real problem for the Black community in the UK that requires fixing predominantly by the white majority. I am still curious to hear your take on this very specific problem that is, after all, the root of the Black Lives Matter movement that you claim to object to.
Objections to the BLM movement are shared by a sizeable portion of Black people in the US. A couple of weeks ago a girl defaced a BLM mural(?) which had been put outside Trump Tower, shouting slogans like "Refund the Police!" etc
Or NBA player Jonathan Isaac refusing to kneel during the national anthem

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Pe.A »

graham wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:19 pm
time please wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:50 am

I think Graham is trying to find offence wherever he can! I have been living abroad for 45 years, I quite regularly get asked where I come from because I still have a slight accent. I have never felt that anyone is trying to tell me that " you're not one of us". On the contrary it is a good opening for a conversation.

Edit added: i don’t think my point above was clear. Culture is environmental too. We have no control over our genetic composition but can acquire culture within a generation. A person of Asian genetic ancestry who is a second, third etc generation Brit can have zero connection to Asian culture. In AMPs story, the person in question had a British accent and is apparently culturally as British as anyone. But despite this, they were asked where they were from originally. Imagine a white person who was born in Germany to German parents but grew up in London and acquired a British accent. Would they be asked where they came from? Doubtful. So skin really is the only discriminating characteristic here.
Germans and English can look virtually (though not always) similar - but if said person had 'von Schlinkerhoffen' as a surname (: p), it would be a fair enough question for someone to ask where they were from, or preferably to ask where their parents were from etc
Last edited by Pe.A on Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Black Lives Matter

Post by Pe.A »

graham wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:41 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:11 pm
Graham. I thought that I had made my views perfectly plain. I do not consider white, black, brown, yellow, round eyes or narrowed eyes, male female or hermaphrodites differently. I do object to green martians however.
I view with disgust the actions of certain police of various nationalities who act improperly against people of their own or different colours.
I view with concern those people who try to claim that any one group of people is better than another group
I don't take issue with you, David. I take you at your word that you treat everyone equally. That doesn't change the fact that Black people are under-represented, both here in the US and over there in the UK, in positions of power within government, industry etc. And it doesn't change the fact that police interactions with Black people tend to result in the kinds of acts you view with disgust to a greater proportion that do interactions with white people. That's why I have tried to stress the impact of SYSTEMIC racism, and not the actions of individuals, and why I think its important to discuss what we can do to correct this.

And, with the greatest of respect, not seeing people differently at this time doesnt help. In an idealistic, equal and equitable world then yes it'd be the right way to do business. But, we don't live in that world. We live in a world that is plagued by the impacts of empire, slavery, inequality, and poverty. I would suggest that the way to address the impacts of systemic racism is not to pretend color doesn't exist but to recognize that inequity exists based on color and to address it.
You seem to view this in solely 'Black' VS 'White' terms - what about the others...?

Correction: We live in a world plagued by the impact of history in general. Groups in the US and the UK who, for whatever reasons, perform well, tend to focus less on the alleged racial inequity

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