Compare and contrast

[Mid A 15]

two articles from The Telegraph today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... lland.html

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... smate.html

[Fjgrogan]

It is articles like the second one in the Telegraph that make me wonder if I really want to go on living in this country!

[Jo]

Well bear in mind the Telegraph's pedigree - ok, it's not quite the Daily Mail, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a bit more behind the second story than they're telling us.

[AKAP]

You're right Jo. A longer article in the Telegraph did go on to explain that the child was welcome to discuss matters of faith but that she had frightened her friends (aged 7) by telling them that they would go to hell if they didn't believe in God. The teacher felt obliged to intervene. The head teacher then felt obliged to deal with the issue as the mother circulated an e-mail that in his words "It contained an untrue allegation about the school but as the investigation is ongoing I cannot discuss the matter further."
I despair of papers twisting stories, invariably the decisions made for good reason are held up to ridicule to pursue some imagined issue of the editorial staff.

[Fjgrogan]

Obviously the whole issue of freedom to express one's religious views is important. What I find more personally distressing is the thought that prayer requests made in personal e-mails (something which I do frequently) can then be splashed across the national news, and become a potentially sackable offence (although thankfully I am no longer employed, so that doesn't apply to me!). It makes me feel that it is no longer safe to use e-mail - I might as well sell the computer! For some time I have been horrified to see people's Facebook entries quoted in the media - it is one of the reasons that I have always avoided Facebook. Now I am having second thoughts about whether it is 'safe' to use this sort of forum, unless we all stick to topics that are so bland and inoffensive that they are of no interest anyway - but then I used to think that my personal prayer life was a 'safe' and private issue. Is nothing sacred any more?

[midget]

Obviously the whole issue of freedom to express one's religious views is important. What I find more personally distressing is the thought that prayer requests made in personal e-mails (something which I do frequently) can then be splashed across the national news, and become a potentially sackable offence (although thankfully I am no longer employed, so that doesn't apply to me!). It makes me feel that it is no longer safe to use e-mail - I might as well sell the computer! For some time I have been horrified to see people's Facebook entries quoted in the media - it is one of the reasons that I have always avoided Facebook. Now I am having second thoughts about whether it is 'safe' to use this sort of forum, unless we all stick to topics that are so bland and inoffensive that they are of no interest anyway - but then I used to think that my personal prayer life was a 'safe' and private issue. Is nothing sacred any more?

Probably not. Almost everything seems to be contrart to the Human Rights act/elfnsafety/Freedom of Information/political correctness that it is dangerous to say or do almost anything, anf they'll be examining our thoughts soon.

OK paranoid rant over for the day.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

A couple of weeks ago, in Church, a Church warden sidled up to me and asked if I would "Take Prayers" as somebody was sick.------ I duly did, and afterwards -- over Coffee and Biscuits, (Wonderful welcoming Church, but C of E ) a lady came up to me and said "I did like the way you did prayers -- you didn't look at your notes once !"
When I related this to my Wife (whom I have mentioned, was a Baptist Missionary, inThailand ) we fell about giggling ----
Do you really think that you need notes ?
I agree that all people of whatever Faith, are being squeezed by PC and the thought of being sued ---
Have you, in the past, ever been approached by a person or persons, of a different Denomination to yourself ?
You Have ? --- Then call Religious Lawyers For U, who will take up your case FREE ,and recover the enormous (If we can manage it ) costs from the other side !
What a World we live in ---- Praise Be for the Archbishop of York ! !

[englishangel]

A couple of weeks ago, in Church, a Church warden sidled up to me and asked if I would "Take Prayers" as somebody was sick.------ I duly did, and afterwards -- over Coffee and Biscuits, (Wonderful welcoming Church, but C of E ) a lady came up to me and said "I did like the way you did prayers -- you didn't look at your notes once !"
When I related this to my Wife (whom I have mentioned, was a Baptist Missionary, inThailand ) we fell about giggling ----
Do you really think that you need notes ?
I agree that all people of whatever Faith, are being squeezed by PC and the thought of being sued ---
Have you, in the past, ever been approached by a person or persons, of a different Denomination to yourself ?
You Have ? --- Then call Religious Lawyers For U, who will take up your case FREE ,and recover the enormous (If we can manage it ) costs from the other side !
What a World we live in ---- Praise Be for the Archbishop of York ! !

Hmm, that's most of my family then. My Dad, Mum and sister are/were evangelical Baptists, my brother and his wife are pastors of a Vineyard church, my other brother is agnostic, my husband is (I think) atheist, my older son is atheist with Buddhist leanings, my daughter is agnostic (and I would say with Buddhist leanings but she is really in to violent sports) and I have no idea what my younger son believes, perhaps I should ask him.

http://www.southendvineyard.org.uk/inde ... e&Itemid=1

[Fjgrogan]

My late mother had a theory that if we all belonged to different churches whoever 'got in' first (?to heaven) could then arrange entry for all the others. Personally I think God doesn't mind how we worship as long as we do - an opinion I have expressed in sermons - yes, I used to preach! No one has yet disagreed openly with me on that score. I really thought I was very tolerant and ecumenical until this week when I actually avoided going to my uncle's funeral because I found the attitude of the RC priest who would be conducting the service so offensive that I thought it would be more diplomatic to feign illness than to risk embarrassing the rest of the family by having a stand-up fight with him! He was an old-school Irishman who apparently had never heard of Vatican II and was in no way representative of the modern RC church. He kept declaring that I would be very welcome to read a lesson at the funeral, but then informed me that only a priest was allowed to read the gospel; then when I diplomatically picked a different passage he insisted that I should read from the 'correct' translation. Perhaps I should have insisted on reading it from the original Greek (actually I couldn't have done so, but I would love to have seen his reaction!) Surely the idea that only a priest could read the gospel was one of the reasons for the Reformation.

Anyway having lived for a while in Leicester which is decidedly multi-faith I think that if someone is a genuinely believing and practising Muslim/Hindu/Jew/Sikh or whatever then his beliefs should be respected, and that respect should be reciprocal. Just because I happen to be a Christian it doesn't give me the right to inflict my beliefs on others. 'In my father's house are many mansions ...........' - the passage I was not allowed to read at the funeral. The same attitude should apply to various different denominations within Christianity - how dare anyone claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong?

Rant over!

[englishangel]

Oh Frances I do agree with you.

In my piece above about the various parts of my family, I said 'was' because my mother died last year. I would certainly have felt very awkward reading anything from the Bible as she knew so she planned everything meticulously, older brother gave the eulogy, nice because the only two grandchildren who weren't there were his daughters and he could read their messages, my sister read the piece she (Mum) had chosen from the bible, current pastor read the service of Thanksgiving, a previous pastor gave the 'sermon' leaving other brother and me to deal with mundane practicalities, will etc.

[NEILL THE NOTORIOUS]

I think we are all in agreement, on this subject, however I have to feel a little guilty, on the matter of the Great Commission "Go into all the world, and preach the Gospel !"
I also take the Evensong in our "Second" church--- a beautiful Norman example, St. Hubert, recently restored, with the ceiling bosses re- painted and wonder of wonders --- a LOO ! The Village moved away, up the hill away from the river because fo the Plague !
The reason I am there is to give our Rector (Pamela) an evening off !
The last time I "Officiated", my Wife attended, on leave from the Baptists, and increased the Congregation by 50% ! !
I didn't include the Organist, who may well have been asleep in the Organ Loft !
Of course -- on November 2nd approaching Nov 5th, there was an Evensong -- followed by a BBQ and Fireworks -- the place was packed, to "Standing Room Only" for latecomers !
In view of the secular "Attractions" perhaps I should try adding a Bingo session, to improve attendance.?
Our Main church St Nicholas, is large , Modern (!0 years) and comfortable, with congregations at Matins of 100+
St Hubert is usually the first choice for Weddings --- much more romantic setting !
Finally -- Our "Village" (Still run by Parish Council) has Six Churches, and is the largest in Europe with a population of some 30,000 ! Entitled -- Corfe Mullen (The Mill in the Gap) Dorset.
SORRY ! I got carried away probably "Off Topic", but I was it's County Councillor and Chairman of East Dorset so I love it !

[Jo]

Anyway having lived for a while in Leicester which is decidedly multi-faith I think that if someone is a genuinely believing and practising Muslim/Hindu/Jew/Sikh or whatever then his beliefs should be respected, and that respect should be reciprocal. Just because I happen to be a Christian it doesn't give me the right to inflict my beliefs on others. 'In my father's house are many mansions ...........' - the passage I was not allowed to read at the funeral. The same attitude should apply to various different denominations within Christianity - how dare anyone claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong?

I hope the same courtesy is extended to non-believers. I am agnostic and very firmly of a secular mindset. I don't think there should be an established church, and I think we should do away with acts of worship for national events - it's a real shame we can't seem, in particular, to come up with any secular acts of commemoration, eg for Remembrance Sunday. I also don't think we should be allowing anyone time off work for religious activities - it should be taken out of a person's annual leave if required. The advantage of disestablishing the C of E is that we are then not discriminating against any other religions. This is something I feel very strongly about.

It annoys me intensely (though I'm not accusing anyone of doing it in this thread) when "formal" believers assume that lack of faith is a sort of vaccuum, and that if I don't have a belief then I shouldn't resent other people voicing theirs, or enacting theirs in the absence of anything else. My cousin (C of I) told me once that she made her sons go to church with her so that at least they would grow up knowing a religion and they could reject it when they grew up if they wanted to. That just reeks of arrogance to me. If I had had children, I like to think I would have tried to bring them up to have a rich and full life that didn't depend on what I see as fairy stories to explain things. I remember being furious once when an American friend, a strict southern methodist, asked me when we were out at lunch together if I would mind him saying grace. It seemed really churlish to refuse so I let him, but I am sure that if I had been a Muslim or Hindu he would have thought it indelicate to ask in case he caused offence. It didn't seem to occur to him that non-believers have the same right not to be offended as believers of other faiths do.

I don't know why I feel so strongly about all of this, and I am not trying to offend anyone who is religious, but someone mentioned freedom of speech earlier and I guess I am just reserving my right to freedom of speech as well! I suspect having religion forced down my throat at home and at school had something to do with it. I remember DR saying to me once in an end-of-term interview "like it or not, Joanna, it's a fact that god exists so you may as well get used to the idea" (or something along those lines) - and I remember thinking (but not saying - I wasn't stupid!) in return "you can control my behaviour and to a certain extent my mind, but you can't get at my soul so you're wasting your time". I was maybe 13 at the time and my views have never changed since.

Sorry, that's my rant for today - religion touches a very very raw nerve in me.

[Fjgrogan]

Yes, Jo. I would certainly extend the same tolerance to those of no particular religious faith. I might however distinguish between those, like yourself, who have looked at the possibilities and decided that they are not 'for' them, and those who just can't be bothered to think about the issue. If I were a missionary type - which I don't think I am! - I might regard the latter as 'fair game', but it would be wrong to try to persuade a convinced agnostic or atheist to my point of view, just as I would consider it wrong to try to 'convert' a convinced Hindu/Muslim etc. Who was it that said something like 'I do not share your opinion but I would defend to the death your right to hold it'? I don't know what the answer is to the problem of having an established church. I would be sad to see us become a totally secular nation, and if we are to have an established church at least the Church of England covers a wide spectrum of churchmanship, and is normally tolerant of a variety of types of worship - I mean the genuine Church of England, not the mass of people who fill in a form with CofE because they are not really anything but for some reason don't want to admit it! I would agree with you that, particularly as the nation becomes more multi-cultural, we probably need to find some way in which we can all celebrate national events together, but I find it difficult to envisage how to do this in a secular way, because my natural instinct when something good happens is to thank God, but that doesn't mean that I expect others to react in the same way - I'd just like those who do not believe to respect that that is how I wish to react. I don't think i am just churning out the religion that was drummed into me as a child - i have genuinely looked at other possibilities and ended up where i feel most comfortable. Even so i frequently disagree with our vicar who seems to be veering more towards fundamentalism as he gets older. It is precisely the die-hard fundamentalists of all faiths who do enormous damage to the cause of world peace. (Is it possible to be a fundamentalist agnostic?) As I said before nobody has the right to claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong - but I may be totally wrong in that belief!?

[Fjgrogan]

Jo - an afterthought - how sad that you and I both seem to have nothing more exciting to do on a Saturday evening than discuss religion! And it is Valentine's Day - now there is a 'Saint' who has been thoroughly secularised! In Finland they celebrate today as Friendship Day - I like that idea.

I do hope I haven't offended you?

[mvgrogan]

me too.....

Hyvää Ystävänpäivää!

Mx