From the sublime to the ridiculous

[Pe.A]

[quote=Pe.A post_id=148310 time=1595097291
Someone had a lot of time on their hands...

Just toying whether to address some of your points...

Haha, not really. But the repercussions of the recent spate of police killings here in the US have led to a lot of introspection and action in academia. I’ve been involved in equity, diversity and inclusion initiatives for a while now but have resolved more recently to be more actively anti-racist in my day to day life. I know some (one) on this forum is a keen promoter of books so let me recommend another - how to be an anti-racist by Ibram Kendi. It is certainly very US centric in anecdotes but the perspectives, I think, translate to UK culture too.
[/quote]

when you say you "have resolved more recently to be more actively anti-racist in my day to day life" what exactly does that mean? What does that entail on a day-to-day basis? I just find the concept of anti-racism, as opposed to not acting, or treating another person, as a dick, puzzling...

[loringa]

To be fair on David, he was only posting something which he hoped would amuse us; I don't think that makes him a racist, sexist or homophobe.

Nonetheless, Graham does make some excellent points, particularly about 'white privilege'. The fact that I am white and have a British-sounding name has undoubtedly been to my advantage throughout my life. On the whole, the Police are my friends; I like being a British citizen; I think we have one of the better legal systems in the world; the NHS is something to be proud of and, more recently, I am proud to see our younger citizens starting to take an interest in the problems of both the wider world in general, and our country in particular. I am grateful to have been born British and the more I see of the rest of the world, the better I think our country is. There are reasons why refugees and aspiring immigrants want to come to the UK, US, Australia rather than Hungary, Mexico or China, whatever the challenges they face before and after they arrive on these / those shores.

Historically, I also think that, by and large, the British Empire was a good thing which ended relatively, and I use that word advisedly, peacefully and promptly to reflect the wishes of the former colonies, dominions and territories. Empire or one sort or another was inevitable given the nature of the world from the late 15th Century onwards - there have always been winners and losers and this was Western Europe's' time. It isn't any longer and that is just as inevitable. There is a danger of looking at history through the lens of our modern world though none of that justifies disreputable or dishonest behaviour or any sort, and certainly not the massacres to which Graham refers though even some of them should be seen in context. On the whole Great Britain was a better imperial master than most countries have been throughout history, and whilst we were clearly enthusiastic slavers, we were not only one of the nations to ban first the slave trade and later on slavery, but we were also one of the few actively to do anything about preventing its continuation.

None of this changes the fact that as a 'white' person in a predominantly 'white' country I have long enjoyed advantages that, solely based on the colour of their skin, many of my fellow countrymen simply have not. I also accept unreservedly that many if not most of our institutions are institutionally racist, even if they do not mean to be. What I don't know is what, if anything, can be done to change this, certainly in the short term. I have a lot of hope for the longer-term future; in my experience young people simply don't 'see' colour in the way earlier generations did, my own included, but I am less certain about what can actually be 'done', at least my the Government and the institutions of the State.

There has been a lot on nonsense talked about the Black Lives Matter movement, mainly in the right wing press both here and abroad, particularly in the United States. Of these, the most concerning is probably the 'All Lives Matter' counter-movement. Of course all lives matter but as a white person mine already does, we now need to make sure that other people, specifically black people, can enjoy the same treatment. Sadly, it probably takes a degree of violence and rioting to get people to take action. The Suffragists existed for half a century fighting for women's suffrage but it wasn't until upper middle class white women started throwing themselves in front of racehorses and bombing churches that women actually gained the vote. Looting and rioting can never be condoned, but people take notice when the suffering of others starts to affect them personally.

The bottom line is that we need to see a start to the end of white privilege and a recognition that skin colour should not determine the life, rights and opportunities that anyone enjoys.

[sejintenej]

To be fair on David, he was only posting something which he hoped would amuse us; I don't think that makes him a racist, sexist or homophobe.

Thanks for that, Andrew They should look at the overall heading of these threads: "From the sublime to the ridiculous"
I would like to think I am not too racist; I was perfectly happy working side by side with Indians, an Italian (in Italy), Japanese (who now happens to be a Facebook friend), a couple of Moslems, an Iranian and a Jamaican that I can think of on the spur of the moment. I have been happy staying in a Chinese household, I worked in Africa and South America the latter being a real mix of races and I am married for 54 years to a lady who has OFFICIALLY been classified as "coloured"
For me it is totally a question of how a person behaves and I have come across just as many undesirable white Brits as foreigners

There are reasons why refugees and aspiring immigrants want to come to the UK, US, Australia rather than Hungary, Mexico or China, whatever the challenges they face before and after they arrive on these / those shores.

I would put language as a major factor; English is taught in schools in many foreign countries so people feel that they could get by more easily, but see below Also, of course, there are the social benefits which surpass most other countries

Historically, I also think that, by and large, the British Empire was a good thing which ended relatively, and I use that word advisedly, peacefully and promptly to reflect the wishes of the former colonies, dominions and territories. On the whole Great Britain was a better imperial master than most countries have been throughout history, and whilst we were clearly enthusiastic slavers, we were not only one of the nations to ban first the slave trade and later on slavery, but we were also one of the few actively to do anything about preventing its continuation.

Purely by chance I got to talk to a Ghanain retired Minister of Finance (because I recognised the drumming at JFK airport) He said that Britain made mistakes in Ghana but they only made one big one - they left. Under British rule they treated all the tribes the same with no preferences, people were all treated equally .........

in my experience young people simply don't 'see' colour in the way earlier generations did, my own included, but I am less certain about what can actually be 'done', at least my the Government and the institutions of the State.

I suspect that an element was fear of the unknown. The Jamaican I worked with used to shout in what sounded like a belligerent manner whereas in fact it was for him and his mates, their normal way of talking.

There has been a lot on nonsense talked about the Black Lives Matter movement, mainly in the right wing press both here and abroad, particularly in the United States. Of these, the most concerning is probably the 'All Lives Matter' counter-movement. Of course all lives matter but as a white person mine already does, we now need to make sure that other people, specifically black people, can enjoy the same treatment. Sadly, it probably takes a degree of violence and rioting to get people to take action. The Suffragists existed for half a century fighting for women'

[Ajarn Philip]

... I have come across just as many undesirable white Brits as foreigners

Tell me about it... and not just Brits by any means. I've spent a fair bit of my life overseas; most recently 14 years in Thailand until I returned to the UK 3 years ago. They say travel broadens the mind, but I've seen precious little evidence of that.

[Ajarn Philip]

To be fair on David, he was only posting something which he hoped would amuse us; I don't think that makes him a racist, sexist or homophobe.

I agree, though I think the original author has some questions to answer...

To be honest, when I saw David's post I raised an eyebrow (actually I raised both, as unfortunately I've never been able to raise just one) and was tempted to make a couple of points along the lines similar to graham's, though not quite so strongly. Since these were not necessarily David's views but a reash of someone else's, and since it was in the Sublime to the ridiculous" thread, I didn't bother. It didn't amuse me, but so what?

The very nature of systemic or institutionalised attitudes is that most us have no idea they apply to us. The "some of my best friends are..." syndrome.

It's healthy that this is now a subject of general debate, but it's a debate that is not really in line with the spirit of this thread and probably deserves its own.

[sejintenej]

Confused

I went to Grammar School & have always held a job. I now find out that I am not here because I earned it, but because I was “advantaged.

You can have earned it and been advantaged at the same time. As a working class kid who became a professor at one of the world's leading academic institutions (apologies for the humble brag) it took me a while to come to terms with this. I did work hard to get where I am today. But would Black or Brown kids have had the same opportunities that I did? If I had a foreign sounding name, would people have responded to my emails inquiries in the same way? A good body of research tells us the answer is no.

Again, is this to do with race or force of numbers, or some. Until I really got to know him and other Jamaicans that was frighteningwhere in between. Does race disparity in a particular area equate exclusively to racism The current UK race commissioner Tony Sewell is one who questions the notion, or extent, of institutional racism...

or is this to an extent a matter simply of fear of the unknown? I have written elsewhere of the Jamaican who appeared to shout loudly and in patois at all times but when I got to know him I realised that that was simply how they talk normally.

I had a work colleague (boss) who had two years of language lessons, went to Brazil and after the first morning not only did he never speak Portuguese but he never (I am told) mixed with the locals during the 6 month tour. What a waste of an opportunity. Having worked abroad I had 40 + hours lessons in this new language before going and almost never spoke English - yes, I made no end of booboos but I thoroughly enjoyed my years there and ended up working in lawyers' offices there.
This can have negative effects; in my Friday report to my boss (the only time I spoke any English) I disclosed that I had been atra party and spent a long time just chatting with ..... Mid A will understand if I say the man was at that time the head of the S.N.I. My boss nearly had a heart attack that I had been at a family get together - including the head of the military information force!. It had useful consequences!

I had got over the fear of the unknown. People in England do not have that advantage - the racial groups (and I include British whites but exclude Euros in general) tend to live and mix in ghettoes and do not mix very much. I suspect that those forced to mix accept other races. OTOH I have knowledge of ocurrances within the UK of whites being exploited by peoples of different colours and also white exploiting foreigners. (The cockle pickers in Lancashire, the factories supplying plastic bags being two examples)

As for this "Black Lives" palaver, I accept that black people, Asian (?yellow) foreign and British people all have exactly the same rights to life. I do object to picking out one group as being better than others which is what the present movement implies.

[sejintenej]

To be fair on David, he was only posting something which he hoped would amuse us; I don't think that makes him a racist, sexist or homophobe.

I agree, though I think the original author has some questions to answer...

To be honest, when I saw David's post I raised an eyebrow (actually I raised both, as unfortunately I've never been able to raise just one) and was tempted to make a couple of points along the lines similar to graham's, though not quite so strongly. Since these were not necessarily David's views but a reash of someone else's, and since it was in the Sublime to the ridiculous" thread, I didn't bother. It didn't amuse me, but so what?

The very nature of systemic or institutionalised attitudes is that most us have no idea they apply to us. The "some of my best friends are..." syndrome.

It's healthy that this is now a subject of general debate, but it's a debate that is not really in line with the spirit of this thread and probably deserves its own.

Very true; I occasionally find myself guilty but I now know enough to put it aside / ignore it. Occasionally I will deliberately let it show - such as a post I wrote a few hours ago about the mix of people I have worked with.
Philip also wrote:

Tell me about it... and not just Brits by any means. I've spent a fair bit of my life overseas; most recently 14 years in Thailand until I returned to the UK 3 years ago. They say travel broadens the mind, but I've seen precious little evidence of that.

This really surprises me. Surely YOU can accept other races more easily than the average yokel? OK so Brits do travel - to Benidorm where they go to British owned pubs and get totally shoshed, totally missing out on the local mores. Otherwise, like the Japanese in London, Rome, wherever, you go on coach tours arranged by companies in your country with couriers from your own country.0

[sejintenej]

BTW; this column has been going for almost 10 years and is an amalgam of stuff I have found elsewhere. A few days ago I spent an evening just re-reading some of the earlier posts and had sore ribs from laughing.

I am delighted to see that people are reading it even if it does bring up delicate matters because I had been tempted to abandon it..Thank you.

[Ajarn Philip]

Tell me about it... and not just Brits by any means. I've spent a fair bit of my life overseas; most recently 14 years in Thailand until I returned to the UK 3 years ago. They say travel broadens the mind, but I've seen precious little evidence of that.

This really surprises me. Surely YOU can accept other races more easily than the average yokel? OK so Brits do travel - to Benidorm where they go to British owned pubs and get totally shoshed, totally missing out on the local mores. Otherwise, like the Japanese in London, Rome, wherever, you go on coach tours arranged by companies in your country with couriers from your own country.0

I am, of course, the exception to my own rule! But I was being perfectly serious. I wasn't really referring to tourists (though God knows they can be an embarrassment) so much as expats. I can assure you you will encounter at least as much bigotry in an expat bar in Bangkok as you will in a pub in the East Midlands. Take a look at any expat forum if you doubt me.

Also, I was an immigration officer for almost 20 years in my 20s and 30s and worked closely with the Met Police in immigration law enforcement for a few years in the late 80s - early 90s. I worked with some great people and some not so great. Institutionalised racism was a fact of life - almost inevitable, largely unrecognised at the time, and extremely difficult to eradicate.

[graham]

To be fair on David, he was only posting something which he hoped would amuse us; I don't think that makes him a racist, sexist or homophobe.

Yes, I recognize this and hope that, despite my inability to find it humorous, my responses came across as genuine rather than an accusation against David's person.

Having said that, can I just bang again on one nail?

As for this "Black Lives" palaver, I accept that black people, Asian (?yellow) foreign and British people all have exactly the same rights to life. I do object to picking out one group as being better than others which is what the present movement implies.

This is not what the Black Lives Matter movement implies and if I can persuade you of that, then it will make a lot more sense. It is reassuring that you accept that Black, Asian (yellow is not a preferred term) and other foreign folks have the same rights to life (and hopefully more?) as British folks. This is all that anyone in the BLM movement is asking for. Unfortunately, this is not how things play out in the real world. Police brutality, limited access to educational resources, lack of investment and more particular impact Black communities. So despite you and many other good intentioned people believing that everyone should be equal, it is the status quo that picks one group as being better than others and that group is white people. Black Lives Matter is about equality, not superiority, in the same way that women's suffrage was about giving women the same rights as men. In this case though, the law says Black people are equal but in all practical terms they are not. So Black Lives Matter is less about demanding equality of rights but about equity - levelling a playing field that has been historically very lumpy - so that everyone is treated the same.

If this feels uncomfortable, then lean in to it. It IS uncomfortable to talk about it. But it's only by doing so that we'll make progress.

[Ajarn Philip]

As for this "Black Lives" palaver, I accept that black people, Asian (?yellow) foreign and British people all have exactly the same rights to life. I do object to picking out one group as being better than others which is what the present movement implies.

This is not what the Black Lives Matter movement implies and if I can persuade you of that, then it will make a lot more sense. It is reassuring that you accept that Black, Asian (yellow is not a preferred term) and other foreign folks have the same rights to life (and hopefully more?) as British folks. This is all that anyone in the BLM movement is asking for. Unfortunately, this is not how things play out in the real world. Police brutality, limited access to educational resources, lack of investment and more particular impact Black communities. So despite you and many other good intentioned people believing that everyone should be equal, it is the status quo that picks one group as being better than others and that group is white people. Black Lives Matter is about equality, not superiority, in the same way that women's suffrage was about giving women the same rights as men. In this case though, the law says Black people are equal but in all practical terms they are not. So Black Lives Matter is less about demanding equality of rights but about equity - levelling a playing field that has been historically very lumpy - so that everyone is treated the same.

If this feels uncomfortable, then lean in to it. It IS uncomfortable to talk about it. But it's only by doing so that we'll make progress.

Well said. Of course there are some who will abuse this message for their own purposes, but that doesn't make it less valid. I've been watching the England v. West Indies test series, in the midst of which was this video on the subject by Michael holding and Ebony Rainford-Brent. If you haven't already, I urge you (everyone) to watch it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaJfif0Dq8Q

[Pe.A]

To be fair on David, he was only posting something which he hoped would amuse us; I don't think that makes him a racist, sexist or homophobe.

This is all that anyone in the BLM movement is asking for. Unfortunately, this is not how things play out in the real world. Police brutality, limited access to educational resources, lack of investment and more particular impact Black communities. So despite you and many other good intentioned people believing that everyone should be equal, it is the status quo that picks one group as being better than others and that group is white people. Black Lives Matter is about equality, not superiority, in the same way that women's suffrage was about giving women the same rights as men. In this case though, the law says Black people are equal but in all practical terms they are not. So Black Lives Matter is less about demanding equality of rights but about equity - levelling a playing field that has been historically very lumpy - so that everyone is treated the same.

If this feels uncomfortable, then lean in to it. It IS uncomfortable to talk about it. But it's only by doing so that we'll make progress.

I think differentiations need to be made. The BLM movement also has other undercurrents which belie the obvious outward message. There is also a sizeable portion of black people in the US (and the UK) who don't support it. Black people are not a homogenous group. I'm not an expert on American matters by a long shot, but your claim about limited access to educational resources is odd. As is the lack of investment. Lack in investment by whom?As I said in a previous post, people from Nigerian backgrounds, for example, seem to punch above their weight (for lack of a better phrase) and perform remarkably well both in the US and in the UK. Is it limited access, or limited awareness and take up of educational resources (that's a question, btw)? The current UK race commissioner, Tony Sewell, is the patron of an educational charity, Generating Genius, which focuses on getting Black youths into STEM areas. He is also sceptical of disparities being because of institutionalised racism. Not all non-White people are Black (obviously) - there are others groups who also have traditionally performed well. As I said in my initial response, this is a complex issue with many overlapping strands - some seemingly contradictory, some counterintuitive. There are quite a few commentators on YouTube who focus on precisely this. Some worth watching include Anthony Brian Logan/Officer Tatum, etc in the US - and in the UK a very impressive young woman from Nigerian heritage, Inaya Folarin Iman. Worth a look.

[loringa]

As I said in my initial response, this is a complex issue with many overlapping strands - some seemingly contradictory, some counterintuitive. There are quite a few commentators on YouTube who focus on precisely this. Some worth watching include Anthony Brian Logan/Officer Tatum, etc in the US - and in the UK a very impressive young woman from Nigerian heritage, Inaya Folarin Iman. Worth a look.

In view of the focus on slavery that underpins much of the narrative surrounding the Black Lives Matter movement, this article on the BBC website is probably also worth a read: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-53444752. As it is taught in schools today, the impression is generally given, intentionally or otherwise, that white slavers somehow went to West Africa and captured slaves like game to be brought across the Atlantic to be sold in the Caribbean and the United States. This was not the case, at least by and large. Slaves were taken as plunder in war or for the various other reasons so clearly articulated by Ms Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani in the aforementioned article.

If we are to have an informed discussion about slavery then we need to be in possession of all the facts. There is, of course, the argument that the demand for slaves fuelled the supply over and above the historical status quo ante; I can't comment upon that. If, however, reparations are to be paid for slavery, then the money needs to go to the descendants of the slaves themselves and not to the modern-day Governments of the countries from which they originally came. After all, it was probably the forebears of the present-day leaders of these countries who enslaved the ancestors of the current generations of African Americans, citizens of the Caribbean countries and Britons of Afro-Caribbean heritage. Successful African warriors of the day remained in Africa enjoying the fruits of their victories, as they had for millennia; the less-successful ended up as slaves.

[sejintenej]

As for this "Black Lives" palaver, I accept that black people, Asian (?yellow) foreign and British people all have exactly the same rights to life. I do object to picking out one group as being better than others which is what the present movement implies.

This is not what the Black Lives Matter movement implies and if I can persuade you of that, then it will make a lot more sense. It is reassuring that you accept that Black, Asian (yellow is not a preferred term) and other foreign folks have the same rights to life (and hopefully more?) as British folks. This is all that anyone in the BLM movement is asking for.

If so why all the complaints about "All Lives Matter"? It is that to which I object. BLM specifies black lives; why not ALM?

Unfortunately, this is not how things play out in the real world. Police brutality, limited access to educational resources, lack of investment and more particular impact Black communities. So despite you and many other good intentioned people believing that everyone should be equal, it is the status quo that picks one group as being better than others and that group is white people.

Whilst I accept that the police may well be too harsh on some communities do not think that it is only ethnic ones who get hit; around here they go in when not on duty just to take part in a "control whites." barney.
One white community I lived in in East London kept the streets clean of rubbish, front gardens neat and attractive. It has now been taken over by an ethnic community; it has gone down to such an extent that I worry about going there from the filth aspect as well as violence. It is simply that those people have a different way of life . 2 metres for Covid 19 is only for white honkeys. I am just waiting to hear the claim that it is white doctors which are responsible for blacks and asians having a higher death rate.

I have lived in very poor neighbourhoods - think of the classic pictures of two up, two down terraced houses in mining communites but we also had the stench of the detrius from the Lagan to contend with but the streets were kept clean, kids forced to behave, very effective schools . You can be poor, live in neglected neighbourhoods with no help from town hall but still be responsible. I have followed the careers of three other people from that back street - an RN officer who went on to be a consultant, a senior secretary in a City of London company and a highly skilled joiner building and repairing rowing sculls. (Oh, and yours truly but I escaped early)

So Black Lives Matter is less about demanding equality of rights but about equity - levelling a playing field that has been historically very lumpy - so that everyone is treated the same.

A worthy goal but one which will never be achieved because there are only so many positions at the top of the tree and those at the top will choose those with similar thoughts.

If this feels uncomfortable, then lean in to it. It IS uncomfortable to talk about it. But it's only by doing so that we'll make progress.

A friend runs a small factory in East London.
The job centre sent a man to be interviewed who started by sitting back, putting his feet on the desk, smoking a cigarette and demanding 4 hours a day, 6 months holiday ..... As you can imagine he got turned down and complained to the job centre that he was refused on racial grounds - he was Jamaican.
My friend was interviewed by the job centre boss so as to ban the company but was surprised to enter the work area and see that every worker in the factory was from the West Indies; my friend was the only white employee.
I have seen too much of that and it is behaviour which should make me prejudiced.

[loringa]

If so why all the complaints about "All Lives Matter"? It is that to which I object. BLM specifies black lives; why not ALM?

This gets to the very heart of the matter. Of course all lives matter but white lives already matter; that is the direct consequence of white privilege and I have happily benefited from this all my life. The problem remains that black people have suffered, and continue to suffer, discrimination simply on the grounds of their skin colour whereas white people just do not, at least not in the US, UK and the rest of Europe. Perhaps one might expand the statement Black Lives Matter to 'Black Lives Matter just as much as white lives so please stop discriminating against black people solely on the colour of their skin'.

Movements such as BLM are required right up to the point that Black people cease being discriminated against because their skin is a different colour.