Politics

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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:48 am

To be quite honest, I'm totally sick of ALL MP's.

They are using their position to fight between themselves both within and outside their parties.

Yes - There will soon be a general election, with no overall majority and then the Westminster 'kiddies' will all start arguing again over who is playing with whom in the playround.

IT'S PATHETIC !!!
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Glad to see that the Civil Service has bowed to the inevitable. My wife has just got her new (renewal) passport and all reference to the EU has been removed!
There are several methods of getting a renewal - one requires answers to a question about foreign nationality (ie dual nationality) but another method sidesteps the issue. Suspicious? Having been born in the UK of British parents, holding a UK passport and now having foreign (remaining EU) nationality dumped upon me unrequested are they going to dump me in a country I have never visited?
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Re: Politics

Post by scrub » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:30 pm

LongGone wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:44 pm
For those of us on the other side of the Atlantic, what is going on? Does BJ think an election would give him a clear majority? What is the rationale (if any) behind the support of other parties? I understand I may get very different answers from various members.
Bit of a long post, and also just my own opinions on it.

1) Not sure to be honest. Even though I've tried my best to follow what's going on, it's still not clear. Basically, some big and tough decisions have to be made soon but like most people with a middle management mindset, no one wants to take any responsibility for upsetting a large chunk of the electorate.

2) Probably, although I think he's hoping it'll magically solve all the current problems without requiring any actual effort from him but still letting take all the credit. Also, I'm fairly sure Dom told him it was a top idea, so there's that too. Despite the similarities between the Johnson/Cummings and May/Timothy double acts, the reasons for an election, and the general state of parliament on both occasions, we're being told that this time it's completely different and they're not just doing the exact same thing and hoping for a completely different result.

3) Labour - well, there's not much they/Corbyn love more than campaigning, so it's a case of why not. Also they don't have much choice in the matter if an election gets voted on as an amendment to the FTPA rather than as a direct vote on it. One requires a majority of 1, the other requires a 2/3 majority. They don't have the numbers to block it if it's an amendment.
LibDems - Honestly, who knows or cares? They are campaigning for remaining in the EU which means they may pick up some extra remain leaning Tory/Labour seats, but not enough to stay relevant. If they do super well, they may get enough to be the small spoon in a coalition, probably with the Cons, after which they'll face another decade in the political wilderness as they cop all the blame for any disastrous Con policies they allow through. Just like last time.
The SNP believe that they can get rid of the last remaining non-SNP politicians in Scotland and that it will help promote the Scot Independence cause.
As for the rest (Grn/DUP/Ind/TIG/etc), their views are irrelevant. A lot of them are not standing for re-election anyway (Soames/Clarke/etc) and a few more are facing deselection after having the whip taken away.

Then you have the BXP and (what's left of) UKip. In theory, they may have enough voting support to pick up a seat or two in leave-leaning Labour seats up north and maybe a few Tory seats, but they don't seem like doing much else. Even though this is a Brexit focused election, people still vote on more than the one issue, as we saw in the last snap election that was supposed to settle this mess once and for all.
While a lot of people say they support Farage, you also have to remember that's he's failed on 7 separate occasions to get into the lower house. On one occasion he garnered fewer votes than a guy in a dolphin costume. In theory he could move to a more winnable seat, but then he'd have to give up his MEP perks and move out of London. For a bunch of reasons, that's not very likely. While the UK electorate is happy enough to send BXP/UKip to the EU, they tend to keep them out of national politics. It's a lot like the LePen political dynasty. They get a lot of support, but when push comes to shove, the French voters seem to love nothing more than giving them a glimmer of hope, then dashing it by electing someone like Macron as president. Trolling on a national scale.

Anyway, that's just my take on the whole affair. I'm sure that others will have different ones.
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Re: Politics

Post by Ajarn Philip » Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:49 pm

scrub wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:30 pm
Anyway, that's just my take on the whole affair.
An interesting and very readable take, though.

My problem is who to vote for? I feel quite strongly that we should have stayed in, so that's the Tories off my list. I don't think I could bring myself to vote for Corbyn, even if I were ever able to work out where he stands on Brexit. And that leaves me with my lifelong dilemma - is a vote for the LibDems a wasted vote? How many people believe that to be true so take their vote elsewhere?
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Re: Politics

Post by Mid A 15 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:38 pm

LongGone wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:44 pm
For those of us on the other side of the Atlantic, what is going on? Does BJ think an election would give him a clear majority? What is the rationale (if any) behind the support of other parties? I understand I may get very different answers from various members.
I think BJ is thinking about BJ and not much more.

If he does get a working majority in an election and the MPs still thwart his 'deal' he can say 'not down to me guv.' If he doesn't get a working majority and the MPs inevitably thwart his 'deal' he can say 'not down to me guv.'

Either way he can spin it that he has done all he can to 'get Brexit done' as he likes to put it.
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Re: Politics

Post by scrub » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:03 pm

Ajarn Philip wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:49 pm
My problem is who to vote for?
It's times like this I miss the Australian system. Compulsory voting, elections only ever held on the weekend, preferential voting in the lower house, and proportional representation in the upper house. It's not perfect, but it represents the electorate fairly well and at least they know how to run a referendum properly.

Back to the UK though, I guess it depends on whether you live in a safe seat. I do, and the sitting MP is both well liked and has a large majority, so my vote is largely irrelevant. I'm a filthy hippy so she's not my preferred MP, but as they say, the perfect is the enemy of the good, and she represents her constituency as well as you can in the system we have.

As for the LibDems, I'm just not sure. A centrist party should be able to make gains in remain leaning seats, but they still have the baggage of the last coalition to deal with. A lot of the trust that people like Ashdown and Kennedy built up has gone and it's hard to gauge how much support they actually have. Tactical voting will probably cost them a ton of votes.
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Re: Politics

Post by loringa » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:21 pm

scrub wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:30 pm
LibDems - Honestly, who knows or cares? They are campaigning for remaining in the EU which means they may pick up some extra remain leaning Tory/Labour seats, but not enough to stay relevant. If they do super well, they may get enough to be the small spoon in a coalition, probably with the Cons, after which they'll face another decade in the political wilderness as they cop all the blame for any disastrous Con policies they allow through. Just like last time.

Anyway, that's just my take on the whole affair. I'm sure that others will have different ones.
Interesting viewpoint and quite possibly correct. I am a lifelong Lib Dem supporter (in its various guises over the years) and I think they did rather a good job when in coalition with David Cameron's Tories. It was not the easiest of roles when you consider the utter shambles the free-spending yet laissez-faire economics of Gordon Brown, first as Chancellor and then as PM. I think the biggest mistake the Lib Dems made, having won 57 seats, was not in going into coalition in with the Tories but in accepting the Alternative Vote referendum instead of demanding that the increase to the Labour Government's University fees was cancelled or the fees dropped entirely. I believe that their opposition to university fees was why they had done so well (relatively) in the election and, short of bringing in PR, no-one cared about a referendum on the Alternative Vote.

Looking to this election, I think that there is a good chance of the Lib Dems picking up votes from committed remainers as they are pretty much the only party to come out fairly and squarely in favour of remaining. I agree that there may be a lot of tactical voting from electors desperate either to get rid of Mr Johnson or to prevent Mr Corbyn from getting in. I cannot think of any political leaders in this country since Mrs Thatcher who excited such personal feelings of dislike or distrust as those two!

Hopefully the so-called Brexit Party will sink without trace as its supporters return to the Tory (and possibly Labour) ranks from which they sprung. I would love to see the Lib Dems holding the balance of power again though I think that it's unlikely. I thought that the Coalition was the least bad government we've had for a long while in most respects. Austerity was / is no fun but undoubtedly necessary in a country that spends over 30% of its expenditure on welfare alone.

I would like to see the second party as an effective opposition again which can never happen under Mr Corbyn so hopefully Labour will get such a result that sees him and his fellow Momentum loonies off for the next 30 years. Unless he gets an outright majority I don't really see any leaders other, perhaps, than Ms Sturgeon being prepared to go into coalition with him.

Again, like Scrub, this is just my view and I am enjoying reading other people's take on the current situation. I shall, however, be moving heaven and earth to make sure my postal vote gets out here in time and back to be counted. This is the most important election of my lifetime.

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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:06 pm

loringa wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:21 pm

I agree that there may be a lot of tactical voting from electors desperate either to get rid of Mr Johnson or to prevent Mr Corbyn from getting in. I cannot think of any political leaders in this country since Mrs Thatcher who excited such personal feelings of dislike or distrust as those two!

Hopefully the so-called Brexit Party will sink without trace as its supporters return to the Tory (and possibly Labour) ranks from which they sprung. I would love to see the Lib Dems holding the balance of power again though I think that it's unlikely. I thought that the Coalition was the least bad government we've had for a long while in most respects. Austerity was / is no fun but undoubtedly necessary in a country that spends over 30% of its expenditure on welfare alone.

I would like to see the second party as an effective opposition again which can never happen under Mr Corbyn so hopefully Labour will get such a result that sees him and his fellow Momentum loonies off for the next 30 years. Unless he gets an outright majority I don't really see any leaders other, perhaps, than Ms Sturgeon being prepared to go into coalition with him.
OK Andrew, after many years out in the sticks I can respect your views about the LibDems without agreeing with you
As for the party leaders I don't think much of the conservative ones - present and recent past. However as for that other unmentionable, as I wrote recently he outstalins Stalin with his ideas. Remember that his thinktank which he backs wants to make it illegal for any individual to use a motor vehicle after 2030 - take us back to the days of stuck in your village for life and unable to get to work without paying him. In common with his predecessors (whom you name) he wants to destroy the national economy, he will send all the thinkers and doers and those with any funds or skills abroad (just as Macron did to our benefit ), inundate already overstretched schools with all those presently at feepaying schools and in summary turn Great Britain into another Argentina. Trouble is that in state schools are already teaching how perfect Labour is - my son was a victim of that.

As for you getting a postal vote in time, if my experience is anything to go by I wouldn't hold your breath.
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Re: Politics

Post by J.R. » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:30 pm

OOOH. It's hold your breath time.

And not a recent word from Freaky !
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Re: Politics

Post by scrub » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:28 pm

The only clear outcome from all of this is that in 10-20 years time, anyone studying or teaching English, History, PPE, Game Theory, and/or journalism (and many other disciplines) is going to be spoilt for choice when it comes to finding case studies to examine.
Not that it's a huge amount of comfort for me right now, since I'm a way off retirement age and not financially independent and will therefore have to ride out whatever lumps and bumps come along courtesy of whichever bunch of idiots that actually get to "run" the country end up putting in place.
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:36 pm

scrub wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:28 pm
whichever bunch of idiots that actually get to "run" the country end up putting in place.
We had the Russians allegedly interfering in the US Presidential election so the US Trump the chump is interfering in ours. He doesn't seem to be able to learn anything. Is it an imprisonable offence if we can get him here and make a citizen's arrest?
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Re: Politics

Post by Katharine » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:41 pm

Yes, I wonder just how many doctoral theses will be written about the whole shenanigans!

In a way I'm luckier than you scrub as I've retired, but I have sons in their 40s and grandchildren to worry about. I imagine that one son and his children may have Scottish nationality before long, something I'd never imagined happening until the last few years. Perhaps I'll qualify to be Welsh as well as Irish?
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Re: Politics

Post by scrub » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:37 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:36 pm
Is it an imprisonable offence if we can get him here and make a citizen's arrest?
As amusing as that is to imagine, sadly, the UK cops couldn't even interview as US citizen about a hit and run without a media campaign about it. The chance of anyone getting within a mile of that fella is pretty slim. Besides, I imagine the US courts have first dibs on him at the moment and they're not big fans of sharing :lol:
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Re: Politics

Post by sejintenej » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:35 pm

Katharine wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:41 pm
In a way I'm luckier than you scrub as I've retired, but I have sons in their 40s and grandchildren to worry about. I imagine that one son and his children may have Scottish nationality before long, something I'd never imagined happening until the last few years. Perhaps I'll qualify to be Welsh as well as Irish?
The Irish situation goes back to a treaty from the 1920's; don't assume Scottish or Welsh people would get the same treatment :( :( :(

much more certain is the fact that by law anyone who has/had a parent or grandparent who was born in Northern OR Southern Ireland is automatically a citizen of and entitled to a passport from the Republic of Ireland. I understand that they have had quite a demand for passports recently. If you are entitled they seem able to supply birth certificates promptly.

The UK Passport office seems to be interested in such people if they renew UK passports
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Re: Politics

Post by Otter » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:20 am

sejintenej wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:35 pm

The UK Passport office seems to be interested in such people if they renew UK passports
I have a second passport due to ancestry; whenever I renew my British passport I have to provide a photocopy of every page of my other passport. It’s for anyone with dual/multiple nationality, not just Irish. But as the UK allows dual/multiple citizenship, I don’t really see the point in the exercise.

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