One for Freaky and Co...

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One for Freaky and Co...

Post by J.R. » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:57 am

So her THIRD baby had been born abroad.
Now the Home Sec is about to strip her of British Citizenship.

I'd love your views on ISIS defectors from the UK who turn back for help when sh1t hits the fan.

Answers on an imigration application form to.....
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by Avon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:54 am

What oh what would CMES have done, JR?

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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by J.R. » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:51 pm

Avon wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:54 am
What oh what would CMES have done, JR?
One can only but wonder !!

I had very few dealings with him but always found him rather enigmatic, puffing his pipe. Wouldn't be allowed today.
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by loringa » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:04 pm

Unless she really has Bangladeshi citizenship (and is not simply entitled to it) and does not hold the citizenship of another country then I do not believe that Sajid Javid can legally strip her of her British citizenship. Depriving her of her British citizenship would render her stateless which is contrary to international law, quite apart from being inhumane and morally indefensible. If we are to defend British values and the rule of law she must be permitted to return home and face the consequences of her actions in a court of law - if she has broken the law. She was undoubtedly very naive in going out to join IS and she does not seem to be expressing any remorse but we must let due process take its course.

Sajid Javid's action is clearly populist and I wonder whether he has his eye on the top job when Mrs May departs as she inevitable will once Brexit is 'done' whatever the outcome.

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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by Katharine » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:00 pm

loringa wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:04 pm
Unless she really has Bangladeshi citizenship (and is not simply entitled to it) and does not hold the citizenship of another country then I do not believe that Sajid Javid can legally strip her of her British citizenship. Depriving her of her British citizenship would render her stateless which is contrary to international law, quite apart from being inhumane and morally indefensible. If we are to defend British values and the rule of law she must be permitted to return home and face the consequences of her actions in a court of law - if she has broken the law. She was undoubtedly very naive in going out to join IS and she does not seem to be expressing any remorse but we must let due process take its course.

Sajid Javid's action is clearly populist and I wonder whether he has his eye on the top job when Mrs May departs as she inevitable will once Brexit is 'done' whatever the outcome.
I quite agree, I wonder how free she is to speak even now, or possibly how free she feels herself. She may have been guarding her tongue for a while, and it would take a long time to get used to freedom.
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by michael scuffil » Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:28 pm

I think few of us would be proud of everything we did when we were 15. I have little sympathy with her, but we operate a rule of law, not a rule of sympathy.

There are in the UK probably at least 10 million people who either have dual citizenship or are entitled (as this girl may be) to apply for another citizenship*. Including, I suspect, Mr Javid. This is a slippery slope, and all these people are at risk of being stripped of their citizenship if a government with less liberal ideas comes along. 50 years ago, the possibility of having your British citizenship taken away would not even have been contemplated, so you can see how much things have changed already.

*that includes anyone with one grandparent born on the island of Ireland: watch out, Arlene!
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by Avon » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:40 pm

J.R. wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:51 pm
Avon wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:54 am
What oh what would CMES have done, JR?
One can only but wonder !!

I had very few dealings with him but always found him rather enigmatic, puffing his pipe. Wouldn't be allowed today.
Sillett used to smoke cigars during prep. Foul things - quite befitting the man really.

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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by Katharine » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:04 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:28 pm
There are in the UK probably at least 10 million people who either have dual citizenship or are entitled (as this girl may be) to apply for another citizenship*. Including, I suspect, Mr Javid. This is a slippery slope, and all these people are at risk of being stripped of their citizenship if a government with less liberal ideas comes along. 50 years ago, the possibility of having your British citizenship taken away would not even have been contemplated, so you can see how much things have changed already.

*that includes anyone with one grandparent born on the island of Ireland: watch out, Arlene!
It wasn’t until after the referendum in 2016, that I discovered that I have held dual citizenship all my life, in the eyes of the Irish. My mother was born and brought up in Ireland. I thought that I could apply for Irish citizenship, but did not know that I already had it. How many others, especially the grandchildren, are as ignorant as I was?

If the idea of revoking British citizenship had been a standard idea during The Troubles in Northern Ireland, would that have resulted in the UDA and other Protestant terrorists becoming Irish?
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by sejintenej » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:39 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:28 pm
I think few of us would be proud of everything we did when we were 15. I have little sympathy with her, but we operate a rule of law, not a rule of sympathy.

There are in the UK probably at least 10 million people who either have dual citizenship or are entitled (as this girl may be) to apply for another citizenship*. Including, I suspect, Mr Javid. This is a slippery slope, and all these people are at risk of being stripped of their citizenship if a government with less liberal ideas comes along. 50 years ago, the possibility of having your British citizenship taken away would not even have been contemplated, so you can see how much things have changed already.

*that includes anyone with one grandparent born on the island of Ireland: watch out, Arlene!
My name is not Arlene, thank you very much. Don't forget that EVERYONE born in or child of or grandchild of anyone born in NORTHERN Ireland is automatically a citizen of the Repunlic even if they live or were themselves born in England or Timbuctoo. The rule also covers some other Ulster residents.

There are many other factors like birth. like construction is heavily Irish influenced, like the treaty of about 1920, like your 10 million people individually taking the government to court, , like the fortune suddenly removed from UK coffers and sent abroad, like the drop in government VAT and tax income, like the effect on supermarkets as their customers disappear, like that is close to one sixth of the country's population. I wonder how many MPs would be chucked out, how many coloured people there are here, ditto South Asian, like does Javid and his ilk have sufficient personal protection.
Different countries have different rules - put in a certain sum (not very much in some cases) and you automatically get nationality from several countries - one even gives you a diplomatic passport b ut that one is expensive at USD one million. You have the right so we chuck you out.
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by sejintenej » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:50 pm

Katharine wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:04 pm
michael scuffil wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:28 pm
There are in the UK probably at least 10 million people who either have dual citizenship or are entitled (as this girl may be) to apply for another citizenship*. Including, I suspect, Mr Javid. This is a slippery slope, and all these people are at risk of being stripped of their citizenship if a government with less liberal ideas comes along. 50 years ago, the possibility of having your British citizenship taken away would not even have been contemplated, so you can see how much things have changed already.

*that includes anyone with one grandparent born on the island of Ireland: watch out, Arlene!
It wasn’t until after the referendum in 2016, that I discovered that I have held dual citizenship all my life, in the eyes of the Irish. My mother was born and brought up in Ireland. I thought that I could apply for Irish citizenship, but did not know that I already had it. How many others, especially the grandchildren, are as ignorant as I was?

If the idea of revoking British citizenship had been a standard idea during The Troubles in Northern Ireland, would that have resulted in the UDA and other Protestant terrorists becoming Irish?
The UDA and terrorists of both sides are Irish citizens!

It goes a little bit further than what you write - your mention of Ireland actually includes Northern Ireland even after partition and up to today . YOUR children are also Irish citizens but you do have to declare yourself to Dublin before your grandchild is born for that grandchild to be an Irish Citizen. I looked at this for my grandchildren - I have dual nationality with my parents coming from both sides of the border (and the families continue to have thriving businesses in both though that is not a citizenship factor ).
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by Katharine » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:00 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:50 pm
Katharine wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:04 pm
michael scuffil wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:28 pm
There are in the UK probably at least 10 million people who either have dual citizenship or are entitled (as this girl may be) to apply for another citizenship*. Including, I suspect, Mr Javid. This is a slippery slope, and all these people are at risk of being stripped of their citizenship if a government with less liberal ideas comes along. 50 years ago, the possibility of having your British citizenship taken away would not even have been contemplated, so you can see how much things have changed already.

*that includes anyone with one grandparent born on the island of Ireland: watch out, Arlene!
It wasn’t until after the referendum in 2016, that I discovered that I have held dual citizenship all my life, in the eyes of the Irish. My mother was born and brought up in Ireland. I thought that I could apply for Irish citizenship, but did not know that I already had it. How many others, especially the grandchildren, are as ignorant as I was?

If the idea of revoking British citizenship had been a standard idea during The Troubles in Northern Ireland, would that have resulted in the UDA and other Protestant terrorists becoming Irish?
The UDA and terrorists of both sides are Irish citizens!

It goes a little bit further than what you write - your mention of Ireland actually includes Northern Ireland even after partition and up to today . YOUR children are also Irish citizens but you do have to declare yourself to Dublin before your grandchild is born for that grandchild to be an Irish Citizen. I looked at this for my grandchildren - I have dual nationality with my parents coming from both sides of the border (and the families continue to have thriving businesses in both though that is not a citizenship factor ).
I meant to write something different in my last post but was interrupted! Yes I know the terrorists on both sides are Irish citizens, but if stripped of British citizenship, the UDA could have been forced to become solely Irish.

My sons are now in the throes of registering as Foreign born Irish Citizens, with one grandparent born in Ireland. They have that extra step of registering before they can apply for passports. Had they been registered before my grandchildren were born, then those grandchildren, with one great-grandparent born in Ireland could have been Irish.
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by michael scuffil » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:53 am

Grandchildren of people born in (any part of) Ireland are not automatically Irish citizens, but are eligible to apply. This is the point. British citizens who are 'eligible' for a foreign citizenship can be stripped of their British citizenship under certain limited circumstances. They don't actually have to be citizens of another country, and this is Javid's fallback in the present case.

My point is this: the very idea of revoking British citizenship would have been unthinkable 40 years ago. If however you can do it for one reason, you can do it for another. For example, because of a criminal conviction. Or failure to pay a parking fine. We get into a situation of administrative creep, as we've seen with the Windrush scandal. There are many millions of British citizens who are either already citizens of another country (often unknowingly -- I hadn't realized I was Irish until five years ago), or eligible to become such. This is how things started in Nazi Germany: many of the persecuted Jews didn't even know they were Jews (the scientist Lise Meitner is a well-known example).
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by Katharine » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:01 am

I quite agree Michael.
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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by loringa » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:22 pm

michael scuffil wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:53 am
British citizens who are 'eligible' for a foreign citizenship can be stripped of their British citizenship under certain limited circumstances. They don't actually have to be citizens of another country, and this is Javid's fallback in the present case.
Presumably Bangladesh would still have every right to deny Shamima Begum citizenship and, even if they are willing to grant it, unless she already had it then presumably she would be stateless during the period following her being stripped of her British citizenship. I thought you were not permitted under international law to render an individual stateless which she would still be, albeit perhaps not for long.

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Re: One for Freaky and Co...

Post by michael scuffil » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:19 pm

loringa wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:22 pm
michael scuffil wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:53 am
British citizens who are 'eligible' for a foreign citizenship can be stripped of their British citizenship under certain limited circumstances. They don't actually have to be citizens of another country, and this is Javid's fallback in the present case.
Presumably Bangladesh would still have every right to deny Shamima Begum citizenship and, even if they are willing to grant it, unless she already had it then presumably she would be stateless during the period following her being stripped of her British citizenship. I thought you were not permitted under international law to render an individual stateless which she would still be, albeit perhaps not for long.
Which is why Javid's action will probably be struck down by the courts.
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