Britt or European

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Britt or European

Post by time please »

I have noticed that a fairly large amount of people here live abroad or work there, some like myself have been living away from the UK for years. I have been living in this country since 1975 a year after I left CH. What are we now? Are we still Britts or are we Europeans ? I suppose I consider myself to be English ( even though I have Irish citizenship as well ) but how English am I ? I speak the language very rarely nowadays and notice that it is a Scandinavian accent that has taken over. When I visit England I realize I am a tourist, I know very little about the place having been north of London once to Old Trafford. I have a comfort zone which stretches from Hastings in the south, west to Eastbourne east to Rye then the triangle is completed in the north by Robertsbridge.

When leaving via Gatwick to go home it is with a sense of sadness that I am not really part of the place where I was born but at the same time a sense of relieve about coming back to a place with a relatively small population and huge expanse of wilderness.

As for Brexit, well in some ways I can understand. You do after all live on an island which I think makes you behave in a certain fashion, but on the whole I truly think that it is such a shame. England and to some extent Sweden used to be the two members who controlled the handbrake when the EU starting going too fast and in the wrong direction. Such a shame.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by loringa »

How one identifies nationally is an interesting question. I consider myself to be British even though I also hold Irish nationality. I live in England and both my parents were born in England but I don't particular identify as English, and I was born overseas in Malta. As time goes by I am increasingly drawn to the outer reaches of the realm and can see myself retiring eventually to the Highlands of Scotland where we invariably go on holiday. I was resident overseas for a number of years where I was definitely seen as British and not as English and, quite frankly, I find the sort of nationalism expounded by the little Englanders, more so even than that of the Scots and Welsh Nationalists, to be rather distasteful. I married an Australian and, whilst to me it is no more than a holiday destination where quite a lot of relatives live, as my daughter holds dual nationality there is obviously a tie there. As for Europe, in or out of the EU we are all still Europeans whether we like it or not. Personally, I do but that is irrelevant as it is the continent where the British Isles is situated and no-one, not even Mr Farage, can do anything about that!

So, Brit or European? I'm definitely both but a bit of something else too.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by Katharine »

loringa wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:14 pm How one identifies nationally is an interesting question. I consider myself to be British even though I also hold Irish nationality.
That’s true for me too, my mother was definitely Irish all her life, having gone to England to train as a nurse in the 30s. She did hold a British passport, I don’t think she thought about citizenship as such but it was the obvious passport to get for her first visit to Europe in 1966. My father was born to missionary parents in the Bahamas. I’ve lived and worked overseas, much of the time as the trailing spouse of a British Council Officer, so was definitely seen as British.

The one thing I never claim to be is English! I would definitely state European before English!
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Re: Britt or European

Post by Ajarn Philip »

loringa wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:14 pm How one identifies nationally is an interesting question. I consider myself to be British even though I also hold Irish nationality. I live in England and both my parents were born in England but I don't particular identify as English, and I was born overseas in Malta. As time goes by I am increasingly drawn to the outer reaches of the realm and can see myself retiring eventually to the Highlands of Scotland where we invariably go on holiday. I was resident overseas for a number of years where I was definitely seen as British and not as English and, quite frankly, I find the sort of nationalism expounded by the little Englanders, more so even than that of the Scots and Welsh Nationalists, to be rather distasteful. I married an Australian and, whilst to me it is no more than a holiday destination where quite a lot of relatives live, as my daughter holds dual nationality there is obviously a tie there. As for Europe, in or out of the EU we are all still Europeans whether we like it or not. Personally, I do but that is irrelevant as it is the continent where the British Isles is situated and no-one, not even Mr Farage, can do anything about that!

So, Brit or European? I'm definitely both but a bit of something else too.
Good post, loringa, shame we don't still have the thanks/agree option. I've always thought of myself as British rather than English, initially without any rationale behind that, but later quite consciously. Having said that, I've also always associated myself with Europe and would quite happily have accepted a European passport (which, of course, is effectively what we had while in the EU).

I've spent a fair bit of my life working abroad: in France (Bordeaux) in my gap year and then again in my 30s, commuting to Coquelles when working for the Immigration Service covering the Channel Tunnel. In fact, my French connection started much earlier, through exchange visits with French families, one of which I revisited several times as a teenager (thank you, CH). I've also worked in Pakistan and India on secondment to the FCO, and more recently I spent 14 years teaching at a university in Thailand.

One thing I discovered was that, sadly, travel doesn't necessarily broaden the mind: the expat community has its fair share (if not more) of bigots and racists. Mind you, Thailand, like most Asian countries, has an innately racist society (google 'farang'). All Brits - and Irish, to their horror! - are English (Angrit), but that's from ignorance more than anything else - most have never heard of Wales.

I've always felt that in this day and age we (i.e. all humans) should be looking to remove borders rather than create new ones. This seems so self-evident to me that it should be unnecessary to have to state it as an opinion. Therefore, the EU is by its very nature a Good Thing. Of course, it has myriad shortcomings, mostly the fault of politicians and national self-interest, but that doesn't alter the inherent soundness of the principle. Unfortunately, in an age that should be enlightened, the opposite seems to be happening. All over the world, countries are being divided and unions fractured; nationalism is on the rise everywhere and multiculturalism is seen as a threat to individual cultures.

Do I consider myself to be patriotic? Dodgy territory here, as patriotism comes in a multitude of guises, many of which are of a distinctly unpleasant nature. These days, while I wish my country well and want it to thrive and be prosperous (:roll:), I tend to confine my patriotism to sport (and as a result am frequently disappointed...).

But to answer the question (finally :lol: ), I'd love to be a European, but I simply don't have that option at the moment, so I'll have to settle for being a Brit. In a decade or two, I might have to settle for being English. Or Londonish...
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Re: Britt or European

Post by jhopgood »

I have a British passport, my wife British and Costa Rican, my eldest son, Swedish, British, and entitled to Costa Rican, one child born in the UK, the other in Sweden, my youngest son has British passport and is entitled to a Costa Rican, his wife is French from Guadeloupe, but got her British passport last year, their eldest was born in Ireland, but his sisters were born in the UK. They all have French and British passports.
So where do our allegiances lie?
My wife is strongly Costa Rican and my son's wife strongly French, but the rest of us have no strong feelings except that if asked, we would probably say British except for the Swedish grandchildren. But I doubt that if asked to go to war for the UK, we would voluntarily join up.
For some time I have felt that borders should not exist and that they are an artificial barrier formed when man started to look at the land as belonging to man. I am not sure on this but would guess that long ago there were spheres of influence rather than physical borders, which makes more sense.
Whilst I have always believed that the idea of a European Union was a step in the right direction, to come between the USA and USSR, the bureaucrats of Brussels appear to want to standardise everything without taking into account cultural and regional differences. Having lived in Spain for some time, it is very evident the regional differences, often with different languages (Catalan/Valencian, Basque, Gallego etc), and yet the regions have to be defended by a centralised government which has to present centralised policies.
(As an anecdote, whilst in the EU embassy in Guatemala, I asked the Spanish number two, where she was from, and she said she was European, rather than Spanish).
Some time ago I read a book called "Global Paradox" by John Naisbitt, which suggested that as the global economy gets larger, the individual units - peoples, countries and small firms - are becoming more powerful. I suppose Apple and Google etc now have market values more than the GDP of some countries, but they both started small. He also suggested that the EU was going in the wrong direction.
From my limited experience, what is true is that many expat communities do not integrate, which is a shame as they miss out on being able to enjoy many of the local activities.
So where do I stand, it depends who is asking.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by rockfreak »

Whether we like it or not we are European by temperament and culture. To be precise, we are all the heirs to the European Secular Enlightenment of the eighteenth century. People tend to think of the Enlightenment as a bunch of privileged old noblemen lounging around in the salons of fashionable ladies in Paris. Only partly true. After all, Diderot's encyclopedia was hardly the result of lounging around. Nor Voltaire's thinking which gets quoted to this day.

The centres of the Enlightenment included Paris, Geneva, London and Edinburgh - the latter of which saw great strides forward in philosophy, economics, science and town planning. After the savage wars of religion in the seventeenth century people were probably about ready for a bit of peace, quiet and common sense. The Enlightenment gave us natural law, natural justice, tolerance, a high degree of freedom of speech and action (within reason), an independent judiciary and, interestingly, greater freedom of worship. It gradually became easier to be a Catholic or religious dissenter. But religion took a backward step and rationality a forward one.

Oddly, seen from today, these ideas were influential with the founding fathers of America too. Hence the glut of neo-classical public buildings in the Dixie states. Jefferson's University of Virginia for instance. Human sized, influenced by the Renaissance. Europe still has a high number of liberal democracies compared to other continents. This is worth remembering in this age of sharia law mullahs, Haridi sect Orthodox Jews, heartland Americans claiming that "Gaaard" will save us, to say nothing of Trump, Johnson, Bolsonaro, and neo fascist Polish and Hungarian leaders who seek to subtly (or not so subtly) try and subvert our freedoms which have been so hard won over the centuries.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by sejintenej »

I was born in England of 100% Irish parents - one from the north, one from the south so I am automatically and by law Irish though I hold a UK passport. Note; it is a United Kingdom passport, not English, nor Scottish nor Welsh nor Ulster (whatever the adjective is for that). I brought up about 95% in England, very heavily influenced by English (?) nobility so my thoughts are British. Having been adopted it is only in my mid to late seventies that I have found and met a few of my grand (and grand grand) nieces and their offspring so I don't have strong Irish leanings
My wife is Italian by blood but has lived in England most of her life.
I have lived and worked in many countries - in order Norway, Cataluna, Gibraltar, Ghana, Nigeria, Brazil, France to name the main ones and have tried to avoid the British residents and workers. Working and more importantly living with those nationalities has allowed me to experience and appreciate a multitude of different cultures and lifestyles, the majority of which I have thoroughly enjoyed. Of course there are the negative aspects - my nightmares are in Portuguese writing legalese and dreams that I remember (rare) are in French
Of course things change - my friends in Cataluna from my school days (with whom I have lost touch) no longer live two lives - one for the Francoist Guardia Civil and seperately a Catalan life in the house. Brazil has seen the end of military dictatorships and the SNI military intelligence (for now but how long) and in France the moves from the country to the towns where the jobs are. Gibraltar continues to be officially on/off with Spain but whatever that situation, flourishes.
I agree that it is the efforts to make everyone in Europe have the same everything including thoughts and lives which is so regrettable and with a few exceptions country folk where I lived just continue as their ancestors did without heed of Brussels or the disliked Parisians.
Last edited by sejintenej on Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by scrub »

Interesting topic and a question I get asked a lot, although it's "are you more Aussie or Bit?".

Honestly, I'm not sure myself most days and I always find it hard to say if I'm more one than the other. My family migrated to Oz a couple of months after I left CH and so I've spent most of my adult life in Australia, the majority of my formative years in CH (not exactly representative of the UK), and after coming back to the UK for work, I've now moved to France*. My Mum's Welsh, my Dad English, and while we we all born in the UK, we decided to become Australian citizens. Assuming things go as planned/hoped, in 5 years I'll apply for French citizenship. At that point, according to FIFA I could represent 4 countries, and if you asked me what I felt my nationality was, I'll give the same answer I do now - "whichever one I need to be".

That sounds flippant, but it's also as accurate as I can be. I'm a scientist, and so fairly nomadic anyway and tend to follow opportunities wherever they may be. Depending on where you go, where you come from can make things easier (or harder), so having options makes life easier. That makes me a "citizen of nowhere", a stupid label with a spiteful undertone thanks to former-PM May and the whole hostile environment that is still Home Office policy.

*(I'm in the system and my CdS paperwork has not been rejected, but it hasn't been fully accepted. The joys of being a migrant.)
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Re: Britt or European

Post by sejintenej »

scrub wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:27 am Interesting topic and a question I get asked a lot, although it's "are you more Aussie or Bit?".
That sounds flippant, but it's also as accurate as I can be. I'm a scientist, and so fairly nomadic anyway and tend to follow opportunities wherever they may be. Depending on where you go, where you come from can make things easier (or harder), so having options makes life easier.
It is very much a question of attitude. My boss had 2 years language tuition and got a 3 month posting to head office. According to those there he tried talking the first morning and never thereafter. He seems to have spent all his time with the English community. Even when he returned to London he would pass anything from Head Office to me for translation!
I got about 40+ hours of tuition and went down there and was straight into business meetings. Yes, as elsewhere I made language boobos but I don't think I spoke English after the first day in Brazil. Had a whale of a time, especially in Rio with the first bank to send me there. When I got taken to a boate and expected to dance Lambada was a bit embarrassing/ laugh - they never taught that at CH. Banking got me to all the countries mentioned plus a lot but it was three months leave got me the Norway job by accident.
When I retired bought a 200 year old French farm which had not been touched for 250 years and rebuilt it over 8 years - we were there over 18 years. I had to be interviewed by the hamlet "patron" to see if I would be suitable. It took me three years to fully understand his patois because I think there was a lot of Occitan words in it. Even the hamlet and commune names were in Oc and not French - it was that far out in the country. I ended up as patron!!!!

Would I go the whole hog? I doubt it and my wife would not. I knew a couple of gendarmes and know I couldn't have passed the written language test.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by rockfreak »

Adding to my thoughts on the European Enlightenment, it struck me that the axing of the Erasmus scholarships was a very symbolic moment in our turning our backs on Europe and its culture - and indeed with reference to CH. The naming of some of our forms after the great scholar of Rotterdam came about as a result of a period at CH's birth in the 16th century when Britain was tentatively feeling its way out of the medieval era and into some kind of sync with a rather more developed Europe. Erasmus lived much of his life in the UK. There was much cross referencing with the continent. Arts, ideas and free thinking flourished. It was one of those periods when men's minds were alive. Since then (as per the Enlightenment) we have often seen this cross referencing with Europe. Perhaps because we nowadays hardly notice it we take it for granted.

It's always seemed to me that the Brexit was a pushback against these periods. The philistines and barbarians are at the gates, waving their copies of The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express and Daily Telegraph. And still trying to blame the obvious looming disaster on others.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by Goatherd »

I may well be wrong, but I'm sure I remember reading that the Erasmus after whom the forms were named was a wealthy London benefactor, not the 'Scholar of Rotterdam'.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by Pe.A »

sejintenej wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:35 am
I have lived and worked in many countries - in order Norway, Cataluna, Gibraltar, Ghana, Nigeria, Brazil, France to name the main ones and have tried to avoid the British residents and workers.
Grrrr...!! Catalonia is not a country...!! Nor is Gibraltar...

Just saying...
Last edited by Pe.A on Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Britt or European

Post by Pe.A »

Ajarn Philip wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:21 pm
loringa wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:14 pm How one identifies nationally is an interesting question. I consider myself to be British even though I also hold Irish nationality. I live in England and both my parents were born in England but I don't particular identify as English, and I was born overseas in Malta. As time goes by I am increasingly drawn to the outer reaches of the realm and can see myself retiring eventually to the Highlands of Scotland where we invariably go on holiday. I was resident overseas for a number of years where I was definitely seen as British and not as English and, quite frankly, I find the sort of nationalism expounded by the little Englanders, more so even than that of the Scots and Welsh Nationalists, to be rather distasteful. I married an Australian and, whilst to me it is no more than a holiday destination where quite a lot of relatives live, as my daughter holds dual nationality there is obviously a tie there. As for Europe, in or out of the EU we are all still Europeans whether we like it or not. Personally, I do but that is irrelevant as it is the continent where the British Isles is situated and no-one, not even Mr Farage, can do anything about that!

So, Brit or European? I'm definitely both but a bit of something else too.
Good post, loringa, shame we don't still have the thanks/agree option. I've always thought of myself as British rather than English, initially without any rationale behind that, but later quite consciously.

Curious - Underwood is a very English name.

Is this a legacy of the definitions of Britishness and Englishness having been very intertwined back in the day...?
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Re: Britt or European

Post by rockfreak »

Goatherd wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:48 am I may well be wrong, but I'm sure I remember reading that the Erasmus after whom the forms were named was a wealthy London benefactor, not the 'Scholar of Rotterdam'.
He came from Rotterdam but spent much of his life in the UK. Translated the New Testament from the original Greek, wrote satirical tracts attacking the established church and was considered something of a humanist and free-thinker for his day. I don't know about the wealthy London benefactor. Is it possibly someone else with the same name?
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Re: Britt or European

Post by rockfreak »

Yes you're right Goatherd. The famous Erasmus died in 1536, well before the establishment of CH so it's another chap. I was putting two and two together and making five.
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