Did anyone know?

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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Pe.A » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:13 pm

TMF wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:49 pm
I certainly wouldn't hold up India, Kenya or Uganda as examples of best practice
Just some of the countries that prosecute teachers who burst pupil's eardrums. I meant no offense to enlightened corporal punishment enthusiasts and apologists.
It's not about being an enthusiast or apologist. It's about maintaining a bit of perspective. The guy taught for over 3 decades after.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by TMF » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:55 pm

Agreed, as I said, you are entitled to your feelings and perspectives.
It's not about being an enthusiast or apologist. It's about maintaining a bit of perspective. The guy taught for over 3 decades after.
Yes, he is and was a paragon of virtue. In his own words:

'Durrant, of Milton Abbas, Blandford, told jurors at Dorchester Crown Court he was very friendly with many of the boys he taught and he would often hug them and give them massages in a friendly way.'
'Durrant told the jury he had been drinking wine all evening and he and the other pupils were drunk.
Durrant said after sitting and talking to a schoolboy for a few hours he then hugged him and left and walked around the school stopping at different rooms.
He then admitted he drove two miles home to his house.'

From: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... ex-2810551

Perspectives will of course differ on many things - some people we see assault that bursts a child's eardrums as reprehensible. Some will see such an event as an inevitable consequence of a previous time and not a cause for prosecution. I suppose you can choose where your children are befriended, educated,''massaged', and/or enlightened in drinking etiquette (or not) as you desire.

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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Mid A 15 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:38 pm

TMF wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:55 pm
Agreed, as I said, you are entitled to your feelings and perspectives.
It's not about being an enthusiast or apologist. It's about maintaining a bit of perspective. The guy taught for over 3 decades after.
Yes, he is and was a paragon of virtue. In his own words:

'Durrant, of Milton Abbas, Blandford, told jurors at Dorchester Crown Court he was very friendly with many of the boys he taught and he would often hug them and give them massages in a friendly way.'
'Durrant told the jury he had been drinking wine all evening and he and the other pupils were drunk.
Durrant said after sitting and talking to a schoolboy for a few hours he then hugged him and left and walked around the school stopping at different rooms.
He then admitted he drove two miles home to his house.'

From: https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... ex-2810551

Perspectives will of course differ on many things - some people we see assault that bursts a child's eardrums as reprehensible. Some will see such an event as an inevitable consequence of a previous time and not a cause for prosecution. I suppose you can choose where your children are befriended, educated,''massaged', and/or enlightened in drinking etiquette (or not) as you desire.
I note from previous posts that you attended CH in the seventies.

May I ask, out of interest, whether or not you were ever offered alcohol by Masters or frequented the Grecians Club?

If I have misunderstood you I apologise in advance but I sense a disapproval of alcohol at CH regardless of any link to abuse. Is this revisionism in the light of terrible events or your opinion anyway?

Everyone that has commented on this forum, from what I can see, unambiguously condemns the manipulative behaviour of the abusers in exploiting vulnerable pupils by misusing alcohol but that does not make every interaction between Master and Pupil (s) involving alcohol a sinister event.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by TMF » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:21 pm

I do not recall being offered alcohol by teachers and I did go to the 'grecians' club' on occasion.
If I have misunderstood you I apologise in advance but I sense a disapproval of alcohol at CH regardless of any link to abuse. Is this revisionism in the light of terrible events or your opinion anyway?
I do not disapprove of alcohol at CH or anywhere else. It has to be said that alcohol featured in Norfolk Broads trips, Burr's activities, Webb's disinhibition, Durrant's exemplary behavior, McCall, Dobbie's parties, and so on.

No doubt it will seem unenlightened and old fashioned to some - but I think that teachers drinking wine all evening with pupils to the point that teacher and pupils are drunk - is non-optimal from a professional teaching point of view. But, perhaps it is useful in providing instruction on the perils of hangovers and alcohol poisoning - or for its general disinhibitory affects. I am sure that more progressive, apologetic, and tolerant perspectives can also be expressed.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by jhopgood » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:05 pm

I must say, I am somewhat confused about that CH attitude to alcohol on the school grounds.
Whilst I was on the CHOBA Board, I suggested we might try to do a Hash on Old Blues Day.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_House_Harriers)
This would have involved a run off site, Steeple chase style adapted to the Hash, followed by the Hash circle, including beer drinking.
I was told it was inappropriate.
Was there a double standard, or was it just me?
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by J.R. » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:56 pm

I can only speak from my era.
Caught smoking was serious enough.
Caught drinking was probably enough to earn expulsion.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by LongGone » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:15 pm

J.R. wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:56 pm
I can only speak from my era.
Caught smoking was serious enough.
Caught drinking was probably enough to earn expulsion.
Reminds me of the old joke about an American visiting CH

"So, it seems pretty strict here compared to the States: are the boys allowed to drink?"
"Never; it would mean instant expulsion if caught"
"How about smoking?"
"Absolutely forbidden. No second chances there"
"What about dates?"
"Yes, well that would be okay; just as long as they don't eat too many"
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by graham » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:27 am

Mid A 15 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:38 pm

May I ask, out of interest, whether or not you were ever offered alcohol by Masters or frequented the Grecians Club?

If I have misunderstood you I apologise in advance but I sense a disapproval of alcohol at CH regardless of any link to abuse. Is this revisionism in the light of terrible events or your opinion anyway?

Everyone that has commented on this forum, from what I can see, unambiguously condemns the manipulative behaviour of the abusers in exploiting vulnerable pupils by misusing alcohol but that does not make every interaction between Master and Pupil (s) involving alcohol a sinister event.
I may be misinterpreting motivation here, MidA15, but if the point here was to say "its a bit two faced of you to have received booze when you were a pupil but to be against it now", then file it in the not appropriate cabinet. A child has absolutely no responsibility to make a decision about what is appropriate behavior or not from adults who are responsible for their care.Whether TMF or anyone else was given a drink by a teacher has absolutely zero to do with whether one perceives it wrong that Durrant or anyone else got drunk with a group of children in their care.

I find it strange that expressing concern about reports that boarding school teachers - adult human beings responsible for the care of children 24 hrs a day - irresponsibly plied those children with alcohol to the point of drunkeness has one labeled a prude or anti-drink on this forum. The nice thing about the Grecian's club was that it taught responsible drinking - for most of us, there was no way to get wasted from the chit rations we were allowed. And no one, as far as I can see, has expressed anger at the occasions on which a houseparent organized a meal with a drink for the seniors in their house or bought a group a pint at the club. The only thing being criticized here is a culture in which unregulated providing of alcohol to pupils was ignored and which led to inevitable consequences in some cases. Again, I think some here are remembering the good old days and that because nothing happened to them when they were given a beer, its wrong to complain about drinking at school. Not sure that's the right way to approach this, given all that continues to come to light.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Mid A 15 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:28 pm

graham wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:27 am
Mid A 15 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:38 pm

May I ask, out of interest, whether or not you were ever offered alcohol by Masters or frequented the Grecians Club?

If I have misunderstood you I apologise in advance but I sense a disapproval of alcohol at CH regardless of any link to abuse. Is this revisionism in the light of terrible events or your opinion anyway?

Everyone that has commented on this forum, from what I can see, unambiguously condemns the manipulative behaviour of the abusers in exploiting vulnerable pupils by misusing alcohol but that does not make every interaction between Master and Pupil (s) involving alcohol a sinister event.
I may be misinterpreting motivation here, MidA15, but if the point here was to say "its a bit two faced of you to have received booze when you were a pupil but to be against it now", then file it in the not appropriate cabinet. A child has absolutely no responsibility to make a decision about what is appropriate behavior or not from adults who are responsible for their care.Whether TMF or anyone else was given a drink by a teacher has absolutely zero to do with whether one perceives it wrong that Durrant or anyone else got drunk with a group of children in their care.

I find it strange that expressing concern about reports that boarding school teachers - adult human beings responsible for the care of children 24 hrs a day - irresponsibly plied those children with alcohol to the point of drunkeness has one labeled a prude or anti-drink on this forum. The nice thing about the Grecian's club was that it taught responsible drinking - for most of us, there was no way to get wasted from the chit rations we were allowed. And no one, as far as I can see, has expressed anger at the occasions on which a houseparent organized a meal with a drink for the seniors in their house or bought a group a pint at the club. The only thing being criticized here is a culture in which unregulated providing of alcohol to pupils was ignored and which led to inevitable consequences in some cases. Again, I think some here are remembering the good old days and that because nothing happened to them when they were given a beer, its wrong to complain about drinking at school. Not sure that's the right way to approach this, given all that continues to come to light.
Hello Graham

How to answer this:

Firstly the drawback of a forum is that when something is written it can often be interpreted differently to when it is expressed in person and consequently misunderstood. That is why I apologised in advance to TMF if I had misunderstood him.

Secondly this whole distressing subject is far too important to try and score 'points' by demonstrating that somebody is hypocritical. I have said many times and will reiterate again that when it comes to the disgusting abuse that has taken place I am firmly in the 'throw the key away' lobby for the abusers and furthermore I also hope that Rob is able to gain redress for himself and other victims who were ignored or suppressed when they complained to certain staff members as was exposed in court. I also hope that those guilty staff members are censured in some way but will not hold my breath given the lapse of time.

Thirdly then, why did I post what I posted? In essence because I was genuinely unsure as to whether TMF was anti alcohol per se, a perfectly legitimate position to hold, which would explain his viewpoint possibly. I stressed in my post to TMF too that I and others unambiguously condemned the manipulative use of alcohol by the abusers. However there is a danger that perfectly innocent interactions between Masters and Pupils involving alcohol will be damned by association and all I ask is a sense of proportion. Pe A (I think) was forensically questioned by TMF when he referred to getting a bit drunk with Masters at CH. That is a relatively recent post that I can recall. There are other examples to be found on the forum where TMF has forensically questioned other posters (sometimes positively it must be mentioned in fairness) so given those examples it was legitimate, in my opinion, to try to clarify where he was coming from just as you have, again legitimately, with me.

Hope this clarifies.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by sejintenej » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:36 am

Mid A 15 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:28 pm
. I stressed in my post to TMF too that I and others unambiguously condemned the manipulative use of alcohol by the abusers. However there is a danger
IMHO a few clear words which deserve to be stressed
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Chris Grady » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:43 pm

I have just heard from Robert T and read his Appeal. This led me to return to the "Did anyone know?" question. As I have said before my interest is two fold a) is there any person out there still working with young people who someone knows did abuse or groom young people at CH or at their subsequent schools. and b) are there any victims/survivors of abuse by those imprisoned or known about who need help to re-balance their lives where CH could, should, must offer some financial help.

Neither of these concerns presume that the person who knows anything has to go through the horrors of being a witness at a trial. However at present the only way to report this seems to be to the Police or to CH Authorities. The Police can't really work with third party speculation or even third party anonymous witnessing of an incident. They need the victim/survivor to come forward. The school is, for many, an untrustworthy holder of information, tarnished by 40 years of hiding stuff in plain site.

So my additional support of Robert's Appeal is to ask whether there is anyone out there who knows anything which could help to save an innocent boy or girl who has not yet been abused from becoming another statistic, notch on a bedpost, victim or survivor. And where can they safely go to pass on their information which could, slowly, triangulate information to bring anyone out there to justice. I don't know the answer. But my fear for young people remains strong despite all safeguarding.

Rebecca Wilde (Police) [the Sussex police number is 01273 470101] , Jacqui Duggan (CH), Robert are all doing amazing jobs with the information they are gaining from people coming forward. To date, as I understand it, ex-staff are silent or have been interviewed and state they knew nothing. I remain fearful that new abuses or grooming will happen and could have been stopped. As the moderator rightly says, no accusations here, but any bright ideas on a safe place for reporting or a way through the conundrum could help everyone.

Cheers
Chris
Last edited by Chris Grady on Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by robert totterdell » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:28 pm

Agreed.

Rob - please contact Rebecca Wilde at Sussex police or Jacqui Duggan at CH

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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by sejintenej » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:31 pm

robert totterdell wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:28 pm
Agreed.

Rob - please contact Rebecca Wilde at Sussex police or Jacqui Duggan at CH
Julian reports that the Sussex police number is 01273 470101 in his post under "An Appeal"
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by robert totterdell » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:05 pm

Following on the alcohol thread - I remember the Grecians club - it was good, restrained and taught very unworldly boys (well some at least) how to handle drink.

On my D of E bronze McCall and another bought us 6 large cans of dark ale - high percentage - these wre old fashioned so I think 3/4 of a pint each. One can each got us pissed and the half of the second finished us off (Edgar Newman snored like a pig). We got up very late the next day and cheated as rather than walk on the peaks as we were supposed to Robin noticed a disused railway line so we did that instead.

Alcohol was not massive back then and people like Burr or Webb did not need it to do what they wanted - I got a bag of sherbet pips.

However it is very clear that in the late '80s and the '90s alcohol was a key to sexual abuse and all of the court evidence shows that. It was a more modern time. Certainly Husband, Dobbie and Karim took advantage of it.

In our time it was, before the Grecians Club, trying to get someone to buy it for you in Horsham (or getting a family member to supply it). It was extremely limited. Later, it seems, it was more readily available and some teachers took advantage of it. For those that don't know any carbonated drink moves into the blood stream much faster than non carbonated - so Dobbie using Champagne gets a far faster result than if he had just used say a good Chablis or Sancerre.

On top of that it is easy to mix drinks without a person knowing - you can provide a large glass of Chardonnay which is 2/3rds wine and one third Vodka and very, very few people would know.

Of course now it is even more different as there are drugs that can be bought online to spike drinks - so kids are even more vulnerable.

I am not saying don't let them have alcohol and anyway if it was barred they would still get it - I still can't work out how Pengelly got a whole bottle of Whiskey in 1976.

What I am saying is that teachers of either sex should not be allowed to ply a pupil with alcohol and my understanding is that this can no longer happen.

Teach the child about drink in reasoned measure but then they will probably go to university where that will all go out of the window!

It is my understanding that nowadays no pupil is allowed to go back to a masters house even if his/her best mate is the son/daughter - pretty extreme.

I think the Dobbie brigade have a lot more to answer for than many think.
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