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Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:01 am
by scrub
It's a combination of Jim and Richard's posts that sum up how I feel about this.

There's the full gamut of emotions (mostly anger TBH) that come with the realisation that at least one (probably more) of the victims was someone I knew. I don't know their name(s), but given the dates and charges, it's almost certain that I knew them, either well or in passing.

There's always the standard responses of "at least now justice has been served" and the like, but I have no idea how they could make any real difference to the victims have endured the 15-20 years leading up to this point. It's kinda like pissing on a bushfire, might make you feel better but has minimal use in real terms.

It's hard to know what the broader outcome of this will be. Jail time is the obvious one, but harder questions need to be asked of the management team who were in charge during this time. Given the way their careers have taken off after overseeing this and also their responses during the Karim trial, I doubt much will actually be done, which in a way stirs almost as much anger in me as the offences themselves.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:49 am
by LHA
This person was also a teacher at Christ's Hospital

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1988433. ... s_suicide/

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:22 am
by lvesey
LHA wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:49 am
This person was also a teacher at Christ's Hospital

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1988433. ... s_suicide/
He was on the payroll as a teacher, and stood at the front of the class in the same way a teacher did, but I’m not sure he really merited the title! A very odd man

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:03 pm
by marty
lvesey wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:22 am
LHA wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:49 am
This person was also a teacher at Christ's Hospital

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1988433. ... s_suicide/
He was on the payroll as a teacher, and stood at the front of the class in the same way a teacher did, but I’m not sure he really merited the title! A very odd man
When was he at CH? Not heard of him.

Any more? It’s not looking good - at least 8 former teachers convicted so far.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:33 pm
by Golfer
Avon wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:13 pm
From The School:

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/old ... july-2018/

I wish i’d been to the CH they describe, not the one the court heard about.

Poulton, Cairncross, Sillett, Fleming et al - go hang. You absolutely failed in your duty.
Is this helpful? Do you actually know that Neil Fleming did not report it to management? If your comment was based solely on press reports you would not.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:56 pm
by LHA
Whilst it is true to say that Neil Fleming was not on trial, I see no reason to disbelieve the victim / survivor and the jury deliberated for I think around 25 hours and they believed her too.

In this context it seems particularly crass for the school to have promoted a puff piece in the TES --- towards the end of the trial! --- by Marlene Fleming. If Neil Fleming reported his concerns, he should have escalated them if no proper action was taken. Some attempt should be made by the school to explain how the many, many questions these convictions lead to will be answer, when, and by who.

The statement from the school is only a beginning, and fails to address the details in any way. That's just not enough.

Instead, we have silence from Poulton........

Cairncross remains a Head, who funnily enough like Neil Fleming happens to be retiring this year, has only issued the following statement

[A press statement from Wells Cathedral School was supplied] -"Current principal of Wells Cathedral School, Elizabeth Cairncross, was recently a witness for the prosecution in the trial of Ajaz Karim in Brighton, Sussex.

"Elizabeth’s involvement in the trial dates from her time as deputy head at Christ’s Hospital in the early 1990s, and is not related to her time at Wells. The defendant in the trial has never had any known connections with Wells Cathedral School.

"Due to a delay in the sentencing of the defendant, Elizabeth Cairncross is unable to comment on the trial or on the case."
[/i]

Link here.

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/som ... ch-1484201

(ps - this is nonsnsen there is nothing to stop her commentied after the trial, the sentencing is down to the Trial Judge who is obviously not going to change her decision in any way due to a press statement issued by a school in Somerset!)

Sillett picked up an MBE a few years back, and still has an active social media presence with Old Blues, but he has nothing to say either, despite the evidence in the Karim trial that the victim was dissuaded from pursuing her comment by being not (errounsouely) that her name could end up in the press.

I believe Neil Fleming had his retirement party in Simon Reid's garden recently, I think the jury were still deliberating at the time.

Sticks in the throat, no?

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:02 pm
by Golfer
It doesn't stick in the throat at all. Anyone in any organisation knows that you report stuff up to management and then it's up to them. They have the power to sack you after all.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:08 pm
by richardb
According to the press reports Fleming did nothing.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:10 pm
by LHA
Are you responding just about Fleming, or regarding Poulton, Sillett and Cairncross who were most definitely management? Does their silence bother you?

RE Fleming - so if a teacher reports an allegation of a sexual offence to a Head, but it's abundantly that nothing whatsoever is done (if that happened, and that subsequently was the case), they don't need to do anything, just stay quiet?

Really? Shameful, and worrying from a teacher

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:22 pm
by Golfer
I'm afraid that in the early 1990s the routes to complain were not as clear as the are now.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:26 pm
by Golfer
Just imagine the sexist, racist comments that were the norm in the 1990s

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:27 pm
by richardb
Golfer wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:22 pm
I'm afraid that in the early 1990s the routes to complain were not as clear as the are now.
I am sorry. I can't agree with you.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:30 pm
by Golfer
It's obvious that you haven't worked in education, then.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:38 pm
by richardb
You are right.

I have spent 34 years in law. Rape always has been rape and incapable of justification by anyone. Nor can inaction be justified. Ever.

A poor response.

Re: Husband & Dobbie - VERDICTS

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:44 pm
by LHA
I get that all sorts of systems and supports we might take for granted today weren't around in the 1990s. But I would expect a competent person in teaching or any other profession to work out for themselves of doing something about an explicit report of child sexual abuse and to follow it through i.e. just calling the Police if there wasn't an obvious route in the school. It would be good to have your view on Poulton et al Tim.