Unofficial Christ's Hospital Forum

Folks

When emotions run high, it is easy to either misinterpret or just interpret things differently.

I for one, found some of your comments Golfer a little unclear or confusing (e.g. I just don't see what you meant by "BTW this isn't me observing a similar omerta to the pupils."). That is not a criticism or a judgement of what you meant, just an observation. So it is understandable that people might misinterpret or read into them meanings that you never intended. (And to be clear, and as I have said before, I believe everyone's contributions are important on this forum).

From my experience, it is often just best to "roll with" these things, taking neither offence nor turning to strong words. Yes, people have very strong views around these issues and at times, certain words/interpretations will trigger slightly more fierce than normal reactions. As we have seen.

I particularly liked TMF's approach earlier today. He was hit by something of a verbal punch and just went on and asked another question. Good approach!

Thanks

TMF wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:39 pm I was wondering whether a teacher would have been asked to leave by a manager or superior teacher (or the headmaster) or whether he or she would have submitted their resignation to move on (if that is what happened in such a circumstance). Does anyone know?

It's been pointed out before, but just to reiterate, here we go. Dobbie was a chaplain and given the less than clear relationship between CH and the CoE, was apparently more under the control of the local bishop than the headmaster. In the context of your original question (and this thread) if you can get hold of him, Bishop Ball would probably be a better person to ask this question. Which ... yeah ... so there's that, which is something I wish you all the best in trying to find out.

In general though you're asking about the jump/pushed issue that all organisations deal with. At some point in time both (and more) options would be on the table depending on the person/situation/manager. I know that "it's complicated" is a less than satisfactory response, but really, "it's complicated" is about all you can expect. Context is key when asking that question. Also, specificity.
I know of teachers (not from CH before you ask) who left their employment by "mutual agreement" who also happened to be chronic alcoholics/philanderers/thieves or whose PTSD was so unchecked they picked a student up by their throat and slammed them into a chalkboard. Same goes for students.

Basically, it's a conversation that starts with "so, there are two ways we can go with this ..." and it's usually only had when specific behaviours have become to blatant to ignore. In general, both parties there know what's going to happen, but outside of that it's less clear cut.

So Dobbie was not an employee of CH? He was an employee of the CoE? Who paid his salary? Who pays his pension?

TMF wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:45 am So Dobbie was not an employee of CH? He was an employee of the CoE? Who paid his salary? Who pays his pension?

I have mentioned this before; there are such people as prebendary curates who are full priests though not in posts appointed by a bishop.. They are paid by "someone" to carry out church type duties at specified locations or for named individuals. The Queen Mother had the Rev Frank Stone and supplied him with a Grace and Favour house until his demise. The Duke of Edinburgh and the Speaker of the House of Commons jointly have a prebendary curate. Outsiders supply prebendary curates to some of our cathedrals. Think of all the great houses which had their own chapels inhouse. Those stated are certain; I suspect that the church of St Winwalloe in Devon had such a curate. Lamb and Coleridge had a friend at CH called le Grice whose father seems to have been a prebendary curate. An uncle of a present day le Grice went voluntarily to Sicily, perhaps under such terms.

There is no reason why a trust or fund should not have been set up separate to CH as a school to supply a curate/priest to the school.

Didn't Rev John Robson go on to be the Queen's chaplain?
Maybe there is some connection somewhere?

jhopgood wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:24 am Didn't Rev John Robson go on to be the Queen's chaplain?
Maybe there is some connection somewhere?

Didn't he arrive at CH To join Rev. Pullen around 1963 ?

The Le Grice family is descended from a man of that name who was at C.H. and a contemporary of Lamb and Coleridge. A Grecian, he went on to take Holy Orders and was then selected to be the personal chaplain to a very wealthy widow in Cornwall, whom he subsequently married. From 'in-house' to 'in-bed', so to speak.

Concerning the precise status of the C.H. school chaplain (e.g. Dobbie), I suggest that you would need to ask the Clerk. I have done a little research and there seem to be many variations, all stemming from Canon Law. As far as I can make out any CofE chaplain/priest needs a 'licence to officiate' from the bishop in whose diocese he intends to work. This is not a financial matter, but is required to enable the individual to perform certain functions; e.g., administering Holy Communion. Thus, Dobbie would have needed such a licence from the Bishop of Chichester when at C.H. but then a new one from the Bishop of Shrewsbury when he moved to Shrewsbury School. However, as I read the rules, the latter would have been obliged to consult the former to ensure that the applicant was 'of good repute.'

Concerning who employs a school chaplain, it appears that most (if not all) independent schools, are the employers, and then provide pay, accommodation, pensions, and so on. The school would also conduct the interviews and selection for applicants. I presume also that the school would have been responsible for terminating the chaplain's appointment.

David

J.R. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:47 am

jhopgood wrote: ↑Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:24 am Didn't Rev John Robson go on to be the Queen's chaplain?
Maybe there is some connection somewhere?

Didn't he arrive at CH To join Rev. Pullen around 1963 ?

Yes
He had also been involved in Hungary in 1956, I believe.

I presume also that the school would have been responsible for terminating the chaplain's appointment.

Thank you David.

Golfer mentioned pay and pension as probable reasons for Dobbie leaving:

Shrewsbury's salary scale was above CH - and likely to continue on a more vertical trend as CH financial troubles mounted, feeding in to a better retirement income.

See: http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 9&#p142289

Someone or some group was setting Dobbie's compensation - and talking with him on such matters on an annual basis. That would be where he submitted his resignation for his personal (e.g. compensation) reasons, or the "it's complicated" conversation was had, or where the 'please leave, and here are your references' statement was made.

DickT_PeB wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:50 pm When emotions run high, it is easy to either misinterpret or just interpret things differently.

I for one, found some of your comments Golfer a little unclear or confusing (e.g. I just don't see what you meant by "BTW this isn't me observing a similar omerta to the pupils.").

Fair point and well expressed.
I realise that everyone on this site has been a pupil.
I was referng to pupils when they were pupils, not after they had become ancient OBs - or even recent OBs.
What I meant was that I am not going to cover for anyone on this issue because they were my "mates". But also you have to accept that I am not going to speculate in response to some questions as that would go against natural justice.
Hopefully this clarifies.

What I meant was that I am not going to cover for anyone on this issue because they were my "mates". But also you have to accept that I am not going to speculate in response to some questions as that would go against natural justice.

Thanks Golfer - now both very clear and very understandable.

Thanks again

Dick

Re the employment of a chaplain:

It should be remembered that a chaplain is also a teacher, for whose remuneration the school is solely responsible. In the case of Robson and Whitfeld, they were also (as assistant chaplains) junior housemasters. These are not functions over which the CofE should have any influence. There seems no reason at all why the C of E should pay a chaplain. The chaplain is there because the school wants one, not because the church has a duty to provide one. It is a moot point to what extent the church should be responsible for his/her conduct. It is hardly reasonable to expect the bishop's enforcers to make constant active enquiry.

michael scuffil wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:39 am It is a moot point to what extent the church should be responsible for his/her conduct. It is hardly reasonable to expect the bishop's enforcers to make constant active enquiry.

It's a moot point not for this reason but because the church has consistently defended and covered up child abusers. Especially given the local bishop at the time!

The Church of England was started for the sexual convenience of a king, so it's hardly a surprise anyway, it was corrupt from its inception.

bakunin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:32 pm
The Church of England was started for the sexual convenience of a king, so it's hardly a surprise anyway, it was corrupt from its inception.

Are you dissing our founder’s dad?

CofE or the Church of Rome are just as bad as each other as far as kiddy fiddling and mental abuse is concerned.