Did anyone know?

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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richardb
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by richardb »

Got away with it so far.

But the wheels of justice grind on.
AMP
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by AMP »

ALKR wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:58 pm Of course they knew! I have been given some reliable inside information that it was an open secret in the staff common room. It was joked about, they all knew who was up to it. They colluded. Also... the same source told me that it was known among Oxbridge graduate circles that if you had certain predilections, and you wanted easy access where you could get away with it, CH was the place to apply for a job. Employment at CH was a perfect career move for them. The fact that so many children were from vulnerable backgrounds and that we were all being sponsored added to the toxic dynamic. Because if you'd been told that this was a very special opportunity and that you were lucky to be there, if your parents couldn't afford to send you to a regular fee-paying school, then maybe you might not make a fuss.

I was surprised to hear about Rev Porteous, but it did jog my memory about a certain incident. I used to be in his class for 'divinity' on the 3rd form, it would have been '82/'83. He arranged for us to all go to Horsham swimming pool at the last lesson of term. I remember thinking why is he taking us swimming when we had a perfectly good swimming pool on the school grounds anyway? Then in the pool he homed in on a few of the smaller, less mature, less savvy kids (probably prettier) and he was horsing around getting very physical. I remember it crossed a line into something very weird and although the pool was largely empty other than us, there was a couple of local teenage girls observing the whole thing with a look of total horror and disgust. I remember clocking them, watching them react and then realising that something was very, very wrong. I was too naive to conclude that the entire expedition, of removing us from the school grounds and getting us in the pool, was actually deviously manipulated for his gratification only.

I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it, I wouldn't be at all surprised if more court cases follow. There seems to me some glaring omissions from that list of convictions... some of the worst offenders got away with it.
If this is true then surely the almost unique vulnerability of CH pupils sets the school apart from other private schools and warrants a proper investigation?

That's a very odd story which I hadn't heard.

He took us up to London in the minibus and it was riotous.

"You bender" was one insult shouted at an unsuspecting motorist in London traffic.

He was a bit touchy feely, touching you on the head etc but I put that down to his warm personality.

I liked him and I visited his house several times with another boy for confirmation prep and always had a glass of wine and nothing untoward.

He did of course live with his wife and daughter.

Going back to "who knew?"

The documentary on Ball now proves he was part of a network
robert totterdell
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by robert totterdell »

Interesting - both John Rodgers in his book of 1938 and Martin Stephen (one of this country's most eminent Head Masters) in his book of 2018 state that the reason CH has the worst reputation for physical abuse is because the parents had no way of complaining about it - they were mostly poor or in hard times etc.

Now could this apply to Sexual abuse? I think so. In the later period (1990's onward) when complaints were made to the school there was a clear cover up attitude.

I think that the only way to really understand what happened is for the school (like St Paul's) to hold its own Inquiry which can be private rather than public but with a commitment that the final report is released publicly with any necessary redaction.

I have already asked for this and have been advised that there are no intentions of this happening at the moment. I will now re-request this in the light both of the Ball issues and what was revealed in the St. Paul's report.

Just waiting on some other information!
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Pe.A »

ALKR wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:58 pm Of course they knew! I have been given some reliable inside information that it was an open secret in the staff common room. It was joked about, they all knew who was up to it. They colluded. Also... the same source told me that it was known among Oxbridge graduate circles that if you had certain predilections, and you wanted easy access where you could get away with it, CH was the place to apply for a job. Employment at CH was a perfect career move for them. The fact that so many children were from vulnerable backgrounds and that we were all being sponsored added to the toxic dynamic. Because if you'd been told that this was a very special opportunity and that you were lucky to be there, if your parents couldn't afford to send you to a regular fee-paying school, then maybe you might not make a fuss.

I was surprised to hear about Rev Porteous, but it did jog my memory about a certain incident. I used to be in his class for 'divinity' on the 3rd form, it would have been '82/'83. He arranged for us to all go to Horsham swimming pool at the last lesson of term. I remember thinking why is he taking us swimming when we had a perfectly good swimming pool on the school grounds anyway? Then in the pool he homed in on a few of the smaller, less mature, less savvy kids (probably prettier) and he was horsing around getting very physical. I remember it crossed a line into something very weird and although the pool was largely empty other than us, there was a couple of local teenage girls observing the whole thing with a look of total horror and disgust. I remember clocking them, watching them react and then realising that something was very, very wrong. I was too naive to conclude that the entire expedition, of removing us from the school grounds and getting us in the pool, was actually deviously manipulated for his gratification only.

I'm sure we haven't heard the last of it, I wouldn't be at all surprised if more court cases follow. There seems to me some glaring omissions from that list of convictions... some of the worst offenders got away with it.
Could you pls elaborate on: "Of course they knew!"? Who is they etc...? "reliable inside information"...?
bakunin
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by bakunin »

Of course they knew! I have been given some reliable inside information that it was an open secret in the staff common room. It was joked about, they all knew who was up to it. They colluded. Also... the same source told me that it was known among Oxbridge graduate circles that if you had certain predilections, and you wanted easy access where you could get away with it, CH was the place to apply for a job.
This is very believable, disturbing, and most likely true, but it would be very useful to have something a little more concrete, as Pe.A. said.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by LRL »

Well if not about Dobbie, it is my strong understanding that Mr Reid knew about another inappropriate teacher-student relationship that went on when he was at the school during the 90s that has not to my knowledge been aired at all, although I know for a fact it was known about by the SMT of the school at the time, and I am certain by the student's parents (one was an ex teacher and lived not too far away - I'm sure some of you will know whom this is about). At the time the teacher in question received nothing more than a telling off (at best), the girl he was involved with was emotionally vulnerable but was (just) over the legal age at that time (law since changed as we know). I understand the teacher in question even saw his way through to retirement at CH, retiring somewhere around the same time that Mr Reid returned as Head. As much as I liked Mr Reid at the time, and while I don't know what his position was on the whole matter, he knew about that particular relationship - which by today's standards would be deemed against the law - but by my moral standards at the time as a child, I could see it was wrong and inappropriate, and am appalled that no adult seemed to take a stand against it and the teacher was able to remain at the school. Who knows if he took advantage of other girls after that one, or whether it was a one-off, but if it were my daughter, I'd have been horrified that he could remain in that position until his retirement.
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Pe.A »

LRL wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:38 pm Well if not about Dobbie, it is my strong understanding that Mr Reid knew about another inappropriate teacher-student relationship that went on when he was at the school during the 90s that has not to my knowledge been aired at all, although I know for a fact it was known about by the SMT of the school at the time, and I am certain by the student's parents (one was an ex teacher and lived not too far away - I'm sure some of you will know whom this is about). At the time the teacher in question received nothing more than a telling off (at best), the girl he was involved with was emotionally vulnerable but was (just) over the legal age at that time (law since changed as we know). I understand the teacher in question even saw his way through to retirement at CH, retiring somewhere around the same time that Mr Reid returned as Head. As much as I liked Mr Reid at the time, and while I don't know what his position was on the whole matter, he knew about that particular relationship - which by today's standards would be deemed against the law - but by my moral standards at the time as a child, I could see it was wrong and inappropriate, and am appalled that no adult seemed to take a stand against it and the teacher was able to remain at the school. Who knows if he took advantage of other girls after that one, or whether it was a one-off, but if it were my daughter, I'd have been horrified that he could remain in that position until his retirement.
Ok- can't resist asking the questions.

What do you mean by inappropriate teacher-student relationship? What did the inappropriate part entail? I'm not looking for the gory details, just a gist. What did the SMT at the time know about it? If the SMT at the time saw fit to send Husband and the Bandmaster away in the same era, then why not this particular teacher?

How do you know this girl was emotionally vulnerable, and what do you mean by that, exactly?
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by AMP »

Pe.A wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:26 pm
LRL wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:38 pm Well if not about Dobbie, it is my strong understanding that Mr Reid knew about another inappropriate teacher-student relationship that went on when he was at the school during the 90s that has not to my knowledge been aired at all, although I know for a fact it was known about by the SMT of the school at the time, and I am certain by the student's parents (one was an ex teacher and lived not too far away - I'm sure some of you will know whom this is about). At the time the teacher in question received nothing more than a telling off (at best), the girl he was involved with was emotionally vulnerable but was (just) over the legal age at that time (law since changed as we know). I understand the teacher in question even saw his way through to retirement at CH, retiring somewhere around the same time that Mr Reid returned as Head. As much as I liked Mr Reid at the time, and while I don't know what his position was on the whole matter, he knew about that particular relationship - which by today's standards would be deemed against the law - but by my moral standards at the time as a child, I could see it was wrong and inappropriate, and am appalled that no adult seemed to take a stand against it and the teacher was able to remain at the school. Who knows if he took advantage of other girls after that one, or whether it was a one-off, but if it were my daughter, I'd have been horrified that he could remain in that position until his retirement.
Ok- can't resist asking the questions.

What do you mean by inappropriate teacher-student relationship? If the SMT at the time saw fit to send Husband and the Bandmaster away in the same era, then why not this particular teacher?
Husband was an open secret.

The Bandmaster absconded with a female pupil whom he later married and divorced and they were found in a tent. Even the useless SMT couldn't ignore that!!
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by Pe.A »

AMP wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:10 pm
Pe.A wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:26 pm
LRL wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:38 pm Well if not about Dobbie, it is my strong understanding that Mr Reid knew about another inappropriate teacher-student relationship that went on when he was at the school during the 90s that has not to my knowledge been aired at all, although I know for a fact it was known about by the SMT of the school at the time, and I am certain by the student's parents (one was an ex teacher and lived not too far away - I'm sure some of you will know whom this is about). At the time the teacher in question received nothing more than a telling off (at best), the girl he was involved with was emotionally vulnerable but was (just) over the legal age at that time (law since changed as we know). I understand the teacher in question even saw his way through to retirement at CH, retiring somewhere around the same time that Mr Reid returned as Head. As much as I liked Mr Reid at the time, and while I don't know what his position was on the whole matter, he knew about that particular relationship - which by today's standards would be deemed against the law - but by my moral standards at the time as a child, I could see it was wrong and inappropriate, and am appalled that no adult seemed to take a stand against it and the teacher was able to remain at the school. Who knows if he took advantage of other girls after that one, or whether it was a one-off, but if it were my daughter, I'd have been horrified that he could remain in that position until his retirement.
Ok- can't resist asking the questions.

What do you mean by inappropriate teacher-student relationship? If the SMT at the time saw fit to send Husband and the Bandmaster away in the same era, then why not this particular teacher?
Husband was an open secret.

The Bandmaster absconded with his student girlfriend, whom he later married and they were found in a tent. Even the useless SMT couldn't ignore that!!
Husband didn't lose his job at the time because of what could be described as hearsay - his position at the time became untenable because of what came to light. The Bandmaster looked to have jumped before he was pushed.

But that's by the bye. The protocol seemed to be at the time that a consensual relationship between a teacher and a pupil (above age) was deemed to be a conflict of interest and the teacher had to go. What made this latest one different? The original post seemed to have the speculation and the "Well, if I had been in charge..." vibe which has been getting on my nerves at times...
robert totterdell
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Re: Did anyone know?

Post by robert totterdell »

(JT EDITED, as disputed what was said in meeting mentioned by Rob - Julian, 19/8/21)

The point being missed is that it was not and still is not a Statutory requirement for a Teacher to report abuse activity that he/she is aware of to any authority at all and they can not face a charge of failure to do so. Their Contract my well require them so to do but it is purely contractual and only enforceable in a Civil Court if they were, say dismissed.

At the time that Reid was a House Master it is highly unlikely that there was even a contractual requirement. There would have been a sort of understanding that this sort of matter should be reported to someone. The first CPO was Cairncross but only made that in early 90's. She was simply a Deputy Head in the late '80s.

I think we all know that teachers (some) had an awareness of activities. I do not defend them for not saying something to the head or the governors but I do see their own issues - salary, home, family commitments. Whistle blowing is very, very hard.

As for perpetrators, they have not all been prosecuted for many reasons: victims deceased; perpetrator deceased; lack of evidence (it took four of us to come forward to get Burr charged). There are some still alive who have still not been charged - I guess they never will - a victim coming forward is far more complex than most realise. And then there are those who did know what was happening and did nothing despite being in positions of authority where action should have been taken. They can not be prosecuted as they have not broken any law, yet they, possibly, bear a equal responsibility with the perpetrators as they allowed the abuse to happen with no thought for the consequences to the victims lives.

There are many who defend the CH establishment over what went on. The reality is CH survives; some of the abused do not and others are irreparably damaged within their lives. That is what needs to be understood and thought about along with the much good that the school did for the vast majority of students. Balance but Remembrance. Burr took away my normal life and no one thought to do anything about it until he hit a boy. I know a boy hit Burr and got expelled (or as CH likes to say withdrawn) for it.

Perhaps it is worth contemplating the inaction rather than the actions
Rob
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