Trial of Gary William Dobbie

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Janey Jam-Jar
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by Janey Jam-Jar » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:16 pm

DazedandConfused wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:47 pm
Twice! 1986 and 1987.

I’m not sure I would have paid much, if any attention, as a young teen. I generally remember the sermons being mind numbingly dull, but likely many of them would interest (or offend) me as an adult. I do remember Simon Weston speaking but no other standouts.
Now it's been mentioned, I remember Enoch Powell coming to Chapel in the 80s. I think there was a collective sharp intake of breath at seeing his name on the calendar. Other speakers I remember were Pat Arrowsmith from CND and anti-drugs campaigner David Kossoff, father of Free guitarist Paul Kossoff. Other than that I was probably enjoying a good old daydream or surreptitious gawp at the basses opposite me in choir.

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by sejintenej » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:10 pm

Janey Jam-Jar wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:16 pm
DazedandConfused wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:47 pm
Twice! 1986 and 1987.

I’m not sure I would have paid much, if any attention, as a young teen. I generally remember the sermons being mind numbingly dull, but likely many of them would interest (or offend) me as an adult. I do remember Simon Weston speaking but no other standouts.
Now it's been mentioned, I remember Enoch Powell coming to Chapel in the 80s. I think there was a collective sharp intake of breath at seeing his name on the calendar. Other speakers I remember were Pat Arrowsmith from CND and anti-drugs campaigner David Kossoff, father of Free guitarist Paul Kossoff. Other than that I was probably enjoying a good old daydream or surreptitious gawp at the basses opposite me in choir.
At least you were being exposed to different thoughts, some pretty extreme others more "sensible" though I would hope that it was the older pupils and that their ideas were discussed sensibly later. Anti-drugs: yes, as an older dinosaur I agree. CND - I know it was popular amongst some pupils BUT there was a negative side - nuclear weapons were considered a protective barrier to soviet weaponry and the disposal an open invitation to invasion (discuss!)
Enoch Powell; famous for a forecast made decades before the event - and condemned for it even after the streets ran with blood
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by AMP » Sat Apr 27, 2019 3:34 pm

Avon wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:19 am
DazedandConfused wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:50 am
Avon wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:03 am

89-90 ish.
That’s about as appropriate as Dobbie teaching Discovery to the 2nd form. Bravo CH.
An appalling piece of judgement. It would be interesting to know who extended the invitation.
It was as I recall February 1986 and a select number of (Button) Grecians were invited to meet him in the HM's house before evensong.

According to Dobbie he was very nervous beforehand because unlike the House of Commons he didn't know his audience and was unsure how his sermon would be received.

It was about the only time I ever remember really being captivated by a sermon in Chapel and trying to understand what was being said.

Obviously the man himself, but as Allwood said to a few of us, the text of his sermon merited in depth critical analysis.

A controversial figure, yes, thought provoking, yes, a reason to exclude, no.

Allow pupils to draw their own conclusions.

That's what education is all about.

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by Otter » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:29 pm

J.R. wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:14 pm
I'm sorry Stephen, but on sound legal advice, I have deleted your post of yesterday concerning quotes from court proceedings, even though I appreciate it was from press coverage. IF a juror got access to this site and followed through subsequent posts and raised them in court, there could be serious implications.

Let's leave it to the trial conclusion to discuss on this site. Again, I'm sorry. John
Hi John,

Thanks and no need to apologise - it should be me apologising.

I have been on a jury myself (but before the Internet was widespread, so this was not a consideration). IMO this illustrates the dangerousness of our jury system for fair justice - how jurors are totally unmonitored and can do/read whatever they like outside the courtroom (whatever the judge tells them), and are also unaccountable in their verdict - absolute privacy in deliberating and don’t have to explain their verdict. I wonder how many cases of factual guilt/innocence have gone the wrong way due to a jury misunderstanding a vital fact but we never knew because no one is allowed to know their thinking/reasoning.

I would advocate for (a) deliberations having a “black box” system to be used for any appeals; or (b) jurors sequestered to accommodation, Internet- and phone-free, for the duration of the trial; or (c) the reasoning behind the verdict must be explained in writing.

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by J.R. » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:44 pm

Thanks for that Stephen. I know it sounded rather innocuous in content, and I agree with your views above.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by Otter » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:53 pm

Cheers John.

Having just pondered over it while cooking, feel free to delete those jury views I put up if you feel it shouldn't be discussed until after the trial - don't want to put my foot in it twice!

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by J.R. » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:30 pm

I think we are fine now.

JT has been put in the loop and is fine as far as I am aware.

It just goes to show how careful one must be when discussing court cases which are in progress on the social network.

J
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by jtaylor » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:45 pm

J.R. wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:30 pm
I think we are fine now.

JT has been put in the loop and is fine as far as I am aware.

It just goes to show how careful one must be when discussing court cases which are in progress on the social network.

J
Thanks JR for your intervention, and to everyone for the patience with us a moderators (most JR, as I struggle to find enough time to keep close) trying to tread a fine line, and ensure justice has the maximum chance of being done.

J
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by LHA » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:31 pm

Thanks Julian. Yes, people should really hold off until the trial is concluded, and then the lid can come off. All best. C

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by sejintenej » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:44 pm

Otter wrote: I have been on a jury myself (but before the Internet was widespread, so this was not a consideration). IMO this illustrates the dangerousness of our jury system for fair justice - how jurors are totally unmonitored and can do/read whatever they like outside the courtroom (whatever the judge tells them), and are also unaccountable in their verdict - absolute privacy in deliberating and don’t have to explain their verdict. I wonder how many cases of factual guilt/innocence have gone the wrong way due to a jury misunderstanding a vital fact but we never knew because no one is allowed to know their thinking/reasoning.

I would advocate for (a) deliberations having a “black box” system to be used for any appeals; or (b) jurors sequestered to accommodation, Internet- and phone-free, for the duration of the trial; or (c) the reasoning behind the verdict must be explained in writing.
Stephen
I also have been on a jury and your comments tally. This is a repeat of the contents of a previous post.
After the first or second sentence of the prosecution's introduction a note ws sent to the judge - a juror knew the named witness (I assume it was the witness - we were not told). The jury was sent down and whomever sent the message was not seen again. New jury sworn in and five minutes into the prosecution's introduction another note to the judge. The entire jury was sent down with the instruction that not one of us could be presented for the new jury (thank goodness - the trial lasted weeks!) . It was afternoon and we were sent home - that turned out to be relevant. Talking amongst ourselves the next day one of the "silent" jury members had looked up the trial and realised that he/she/it actually did know another witness mentioned which would have stopped the trial a g a i n! The Jury Usher had had one case of the jury being sent down, it was first for him for twice in one gtrial and as for a third ....


My point is that a jury is normally "straight" and in fact will look at the case on the facts presented. Many times a jury has sent a request for clarification of some point or other. They WILL ask for clarification of rhe law. If Counsel (either side) is ambiguous then it is their fault and if the jury misunderstands then it comes back to them (and I have seen such cases!). Those judges I had to listen to were very good in disentangling the woven prose of counsel so that we would understand what has been said without his apparently biasing his clarification.
I don't know how you can avoid getting "crooks" on to a jury; perhaps this shows you come to majority verdicts. Bear in mind the laws of chance. A jury room has about 35 people in it. About 16, chosen at random, are sent up to the court and some, chosen at random are sent back. Ergo about 1 in 3 becomes a juror in a particular case and in my local court house there were I guess four cases at the same time so the odds of getting a favoured juror were cxocer to 1 or 12 or so.

Yes, lawyers come in all types ranging from the stupid to the excellent. In my job I had to learn to be absolutely clear, concise and, believe me, it took years and some never make it.

As for your recommendations, I am unclear about your "black b ox2. Juries are, in some cases, sequestered without access to the interent etc. but #how do you write down that the accused and his/her counsel behaved and sounded more guilty that the snake before Eve? Slorry, but to me that one will not work. In the private jury room, yes, you can say that and worse but recording it for public dissemination is a different matter.
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by Otter » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:35 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:44 pm
how do you write down that the accused and his/her counsel behaved and sounded more guilty that the snake before Eve?
Hi David,

If I’ve understood correctly: how do you put that down as a reason for your verdict? Well no jury should ever reach their verdict based on how “dodgy” the defendant looks or behaves. It should be based solely on the evidence presented. The suggestion that the former might be a factor towards a verdict, shows the dangerousness I was referring to. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

My experience as a juror sounds far simpler than yours. We took less than 2 hours to find the person unanimously not guilty. He was a smarmy, arrogant, unpleasant so-and-so who probably did the offence, but none of us considered that a reason to find him guilty when the evidence simply wasn’t there. But with some comments you see every day on social media, it’s scary to think some could be on a jury and could reach their decision based on irrelevant personality judgements.

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by michael scuffil » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:46 am

I never knew that Enoch Powell preached at CH. Was his sermon an attack on capital punishment, which he opposed (though in low profile, because it would cost him votes)? Or was it an attack on the independent British deterrent, which he also opposed (and ditto). Or did he propagate his very strange theory that Shakespeare was written by a committee? Or his even stranger theory that Christ was not crucified but stoned to death (thus contradicting the only thing in Christ's life that can be considered historically certain)? Or maybe he repeated his statement that he wished he'd been killed in the war (which his -- at that time -- unborn daughters might have thought just a tad hurtful).
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by max_ratcliffe » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:18 pm

The sermon was very long, and very boring. Over thirty years ago now, obviously (and that's just when he finished!), and I have little recollection of what he talked about. I don't think I understood any of it at the time, to be honest - it probably went well over my head. I do remember that there was some religious content, and it was no apologia for "rivers of blood".

Love the idea that Christians might have been venerating the wrong thing all these centuries. Presumably we'd have to scare vampires away with pebbles.

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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by michael scuffil » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:09 pm

It is said of Enoch that Harold Macmillan had his chair moved in the Cabinet Room because he (HM) could not bear to have those 'staring eyes' opposite him. I once passed Enoch outside Sloane Square underground station. We had eye contact for maybe a second or two, and I realized what Macmillan meant.
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Re: Trial of Gary William Dobbie

Post by yossarian » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:27 pm

Just to confirm, the trial continues tomorrow in Hove Trial Centre court 4? Is there a time listed anywhere?

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