Dates of birth of convicted abusers

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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bakunin
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by bakunin »

I'm pretty sure the term "grooming" was in use in the 90s. Also the attitudes of the time were pretty much the same as now regarding child abuse.
scrub wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 5:07 pm I'm hard pressed to think of any parent I've met who'd dismiss the words of their children to protect someone who was abusing them. I'm also hard pressed to think of any parent who wouldn't seek a rather extreme form of retribution against anyone who caused their child any harm, once they found out about it.
That's why the molesters worked at a boarding school for disadvantaged children. There would be a bigger proportion of parents who either didn't care, wouldn't believe, or just had too many other problems to deal with, or were so socially aspirational they might overlook any downsides to their child going to public school. The priest especially had an advantage since part of his role was to find out any problems the children had at home. That way they could sift through the pool of potential victims and find the ones whose parents wouldn't care, wouldn't believe, or were abusive themselves, and the pupils who had the more vulnerable personalities and wouldn't talk.
On top of that, I don't think I've ever met a single person for whom legality and morality are exactly the same thing in all instances, especially when it comes to children.
This particular type of moral imbecile is unfortunately common. They were the ones "just following orders", pulling the levers at Auschwitz and exist everywhere today, passively or actively enabling all manner of far lesser legal crimes.
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by bakunin »

DazedandConfused wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 6:32 pm There is likely much that has been reported that cannot result in arrests as occurred before 2003 and therefore deemed consensual.
It would still be of urgent interest to current and former pupils, and prospective and current parents, to document every unethical student-teacher relationship that has happened at the school and exactly how and why it was tolerated, in order that 1) parents, pupils and old blues can monitor how the school is currently doing in keeping to higher standards, 2) an understanding of how the situation was allowed to degenerate to this extent, and 3) people can make sense of their own experiences in the overall environment of abuse,
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by rockfreak »

Bakunin's point is pertinent. CH is exactly the kind of institution that attracts predators. I found it interesting that when Karim was trying to defend himself in court he dragged up character witnesses from Eton and Queen's Club to say what a splendid chap he was. Presumably he hadn't tried to target the more socially confident children of well-heeled, influential parents.
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by DazedandConfused »

All very good points. Children at CH were often more vulnerable than most.

And yes, I believe full disclosure and understanding of all that happened is needed for many people, and indeed the institution itself, to move on.
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by sejintenej »

rockfreak wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 9:26 pm Presumably he hadn't tried to target the more socially confident children of well-heeled, influential parents.
add .... who had the authority and/or power and/or connections to take strong and effective action
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by Avon »

sejintenej wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:28 pm add .... who had the authority and/or power and/or connections to take strong and effective action
I think this is sort of the point. In my time, there were Governors in several flavours, same for Almoners. There was an HM and a Senior Management Team. Then there were sundry Corporations who seemed to have had an influence. There was the Church. No doubt there were also various statutory bodies with a role to inspect and oversee the school. There must have been a Court, because there was a Court Room. There was a whole sodding infirmary which presumably had some sort of psychological care remit?

When it comes down to it, it was just pageantry; silly hats and the occasional appearance of old people waving ceremonial sticks. It failed. This wasn't 1890, this was 1990.

We choose on this site (rightly) to focus on the SMT, Richard Poulton, Elizabeth Cairncross and Bob Sillett (names in full for the benefit of various search engines) who I label lazy, incompetent and lacking in the compassion needed to run a school of that size, and complexity. However, if someone were to root around in the terms of reference for all the sinecures and labyrinthine nonsenses that passed for goverance in CH my guess is that we'd find they failed too.

That's why we need an enquiry - not least because we can take it on faith that the new HM is either a good egg or has media support capable of making him seem so - but is the governance robust? Could this happen again?
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by J.R. »

Avon wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:57 pm
sejintenej wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:28 pm add .... who had the authority and/or power and/or connections to take strong and effective action
I think this is sort of the point. In my time, there were Governors in several flavours, same for Almoners. There was an HM and a Senior Management Team. Then there were sundry Corporations who seemed to have had an influence. There was the Church. No doubt there were also various statutory bodies with a role to inspect and oversee the school. There must have been a Court, because there was a Court Room. There was a whole sodding infirmary which presumably had some sort of psychological care remit?

When it comes down to it, it was just pageantry; silly hats and the occasional appearance of old people waving ceremonial sticks. It failed. This wasn't 1890, this was 1990.

We choose on this site (rightly) to focus on the SMT, Richard Poulton, Elizabeth Cairncross and Bob Sillett (names in full for the benefit of various search engines) who I label lazy, incompetent and lacking in the compassion needed to run a school of that size, and complexity. However, if someone were to root around in the terms of reference for all the sinecures and labyrinthine nonsenses that passed for goverance in CH my guess is that we'd find they failed too.

That's why we need an enquiry - not least because we can take it on faith that the new HM is either a good egg or has media support capable of making him seem so - but is the governance robust? Could this happen again?
Not as far as I am aware in my time under the leadership of Dr. Scott.
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by Gingerbeard17 »

Avon wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:57 pm
sejintenej wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 12:28 pm add .... who had the authority and/or power and/or connections to take strong and effective action


IThere was a whole sodding infirmary which presumably had some sort of psychological care remit?
After Hoskins came in there was. I was in the infirmary for a few weeks under his care and was sent off to Tavistock House for a barrage of psychological tests and to a Harley Street psychiatrist . They tried ....
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by sejintenej »

Gingerbeard17 wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 4:55 pm
Avon wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 2:57 pm
IThere was a whole sodding infirmary which presumably had some sort of psychological care remit?
After Hoskins came in there was. I was in the infirmary for a few weeks under his care and was sent off to Tavistock House for a barrage of psychological tests and to a Harley Street psychiatrist . They tried ....
As JR has rightly pointed out, in the fifties and early sixties there was no psychological side. We were being trained as fodder for Ypres and Mons and, if a soldier thjere had a problem he was given a bullet or ten. In Col A the bullet was replaced by a flogging and we had at least one monitor who formed the courts martial and aranged the sentence..
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by Otter »

sejintenej wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 pm As JR has rightly pointed out, in the fifties and early sixties there was no psychological side. We were being trained as fodder for Ypres and Mons and, if a soldier thjere had a problem he was given a bullet or ten. In Col A the bullet was replaced by a flogging and we had at least one monitor who formed the courts martial and aranged the sentence..
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but I think I’ve lost the connection here. You refer to World War I locations but you were being trained as fodder for these in the 50s/60s?
Last edited by Otter on Fri May 10, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by Pe.A »

Otter wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:01 pm
sejintenej wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 pm As JR has rightly pointed out, in the fifties and early sixties there was no psychological side. We were being trained as fodder for Ypres and Mons and, if a soldier thjere had a problem he was given a bullet or ten. In Col A the bullet was replaced by a flogging and we had at least one monitor who formed the courts martial and aranged the sentence..
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but I then I’ve lost the connection here. You refer to World War I locations but you were being trained as fodder for these in the 50s/60s?
Public school stereotypes... **YAWN**
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by sejintenej »

Otter wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:01 pm
sejintenej wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 3:09 pm As JR has rightly pointed out, in the fifties and early sixties there was no psychological side. We were being trained as fodder for Ypres and Mons and, if a soldier thjere had a problem he was given a bullet or ten. In Col A the bullet was replaced by a flogging and we had at least one monitor who formed the courts martial and aranged the sentence..
Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but I then I’ve lost the connection here. You refer to World War I locations but you were being trained as fodder for these in the 50s/60s?
No, I doubt if you have. CH in the fifties was totally out of touch with realities. We were taught thoroughly how to use 303s, cfrawl etc etc. but not a word about getting a job or even going to university or other further education BUT we could use a rifle as a killing machine.. There was even the promise that if, on leaving, youi joined the H.A.C. with their halberds etc. you would automatically get a commission if you were called up. Even then I strongly doubt the truth of the promise.
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by Pe.A »

Janey Jam-Jar wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 3:26 pm I wonder if the school stipulated in its own rules anything about pupil/teacher relationships at any point from living memory onwards? And whether that changed when it became co-ed?

Of course, whether it's law or not, a person's own ethical compass 'ought' to come into play.
You bring up an interesting point there. I'm also curious about the protocol of the time and the SMT's interpretation of it. Also curious about the protocol compared to other boarding schools and state schools of the day. How different do you think specific cases would have been if they been at other schools...?
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by Foureyes »

I find some of these posts way, way over the top.
First, lack of care. I was in Lamb B 1949-55. In about 1951-2 (I forget the exact year) my parents underwent a 'judicial separation'. It was extremely acrimonious. The original news of the split was passed on to me by my senior housemaster - TE Archbold - who not only described the situation between my parents but also explained the meaning of 'judicial separation', a term then totally unknown to me. He told me - and I recall his exact words - that at any time I wanted he would be available to act as an 'emotional waste paperbasket'. As the eldest child I was dragged into various aspects of the quarrel which as a 15/16-year old I found both bewildering and distressing. So, I took advantage of his offer on several occasions, where simply being able to talk things over was an immense help. Eventually, early one summer term, I went to see him and told him that in view of some particularly unhappy events in the recent holidays I found the prospect of seven weeks at home in the summer too daunting. He told me to leave it to him. Several weeks later, he informed me that he thought that I ought to spend two weeks with my mother (for her sake rather than mine) and that I was going to CCF camp, anyway. But, for the remainder, he had arranged for me to spend one week with a camp in the Fens run by a group called the Crusaders[*], which consisted mainly of sailing on the Broads and was a lot of fun. I then spent several weeks with an Old Blue family in Croydon, with a final week with my mother. This was all arranged by Archie, and it has just occurred to me that I have no idea who paid for it all, but someone must have. So, lack of care by C.H. - not in my case!

Secondly, trained as killers. Sejintenej repeatedly suggests that we were not only trained as killers but did so to refight WW1 battles. Yes, there was a CCF and membership was compulsory, but that was no different from virtually every other boarding school and many day schools in the country. Further, there had been a recent war (i.e., 1939-45) and in the late 40s and throughout the 50s the UK was involved in many current campaigns (Korea, Malaya, Aden, etc) and the country had National Service. Finally, there was a very real prospect of a sudden attack in Europe by the Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact in which the UK would have been directly involved through membership of NATO. And there is very strong evidence that the Soviet Army would not have hesitated to cross the Channel. Thus, a degree of military preparation by the younger generation in such a troubled world was no bad thing.

Although a matter of detail, as to preparing specifically for WW1, I refute that, as well. I cannot recall any training in the CCF for trench warfare or other purely WW1 tactics. The .303 Lee-Enfield was still in use in the 1950s and the tactics taught in the CCF appertained to WW2 and later campaigns rather than WW1.

All that said, I would not dispute the lack of career counselling or advice on what to do after leaving the school. However, once again, in chatting to others of my generation who went to other schools this was by no means unique to C.H.

At virtually all times throughout its long history C.H. has been open to one form of criticism or another, but that is the case in every institution I can think of. The abuse of pupils now being addressed is certainly among the worst and should be resolutely examined and those responsible dealt with, but the vast amount of good that it has done should not be swept aside.
David :shock:

[*] In case anyone wants to ask, I have no idea who or what the 'Crusaders' were, or what was their link with C.H. I think, but am by no means certain, that they were some form of boys' club from East London. I should also add that there was never the slightest suggestion of inappropriate behaviour by any of the staff.,
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Re: Dates of birth of convicted abusers

Post by wurzel »

Foureyes wrote: Fri May 10, 2019 10:31 am

Although a matter of detail, as to preparing specifically for WW1, I refute that, as well. I cannot recall any training in the CCF for trench warfare or other purely WW1 tactics. The .303 Lee-Enfield was still in use in the 1950s and the tactics taught in the CCF appertained to WW2 and later campaigns rather than WW1.

As an aside and off topic but the same .303's were still in use for skill at arms training (carried out in the Manual school under the gaze of Grimshaw) when i was doing CCF in 86/7 - the outdoor .303 range past the lake had been shut as there was a footpath directly behind the range wall but we still trained with them and used the .22's in the indoor range behind Peele. I believe they were finally phased out the year I left when the CCF skipped straight to SA80's missing out the SLR totally. The .303 I did my test on was stamped 1927 on the butt.

I remember the school still had likely 100+ of them at the time and the security on the armoury by the gym had only been updated a couple of years prior due to increased IRA activity (i think they put wire strips on the walls to detect a break in through them and other than that just ran a long chain through all the trigger guards along the rifle racks)
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