Here's a hypothetical

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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harryh
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by harryh »

Thank you for your "clear as mud" explanation..... and I am not being facetious.
Tar for your brush as it were.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by DazedandConfused »

harryh wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:52 pm The Doc is still teaching!
Great man.
Still teaching! He was hands down my favourite teacher as well as my tutor. A great man indeed.

Back to darker topics, I agree that the house system was a lottery. The difference in privileges, discipline and blind eyes being turned varied hugely, and not just between Junior and Senior houses or even boys and girls as you might expect.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by J.R. »

I am very pleased at some sensible posts offering more information without bullying or trolling accusations.

Names and memories of the past are still very important. I was very lucky to leave in the summer of 1963.

Sussex Police are still on the case and I appeal to anyone who is suffering from this era of crime at Horsham to come forward.

There are people here and out there to help you.

John R.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by TMF »

harryh wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:22 pm Thank you for your "clear as mud" explanation..... and I am not being facetious.
Tar for your brush as it were.
You are welcome.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Pe.A »

Lenny wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:01 pm
OMeara.
Wasnt the saying something along the lines of "All erections above 50 feet require a flashing light on top"...?
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by sejintenej »

Otter wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:36 am I spent an hour talking with Sussex Police and they were really appreciative and professional. I was worried I was wasting their time as I didn’t have any direct information about offences, but they said every little memory helped to build a picture of what life was like as a pupil living with the offenders.
From his post above perhaps Lenny should do the same (if he hasn't already) hint hint
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Re: Alcohol

Post by sejintenej »

A lot of posts seem to nearly equate the provision/acceptance of alcohol with sexual assault. In SOME cases I would argue against this.

Yes, alcohol WAS apparently used by certain master(s) to seduce pupils; accepted

Yes; masters DID on occasions facilitate the obtaining of alcohol and actually stood rounds for pupils.
I cite the CCF marches. A couple I was part of deliberately arranged for a lunch break beside a bridge on the Avon somewhere close to Wisborough Green. "Somehow it was known" that the publican there was willing to serve alcohol to anyone in CCF uniform regardless of apparent age. That was not the first time there - it seemed to be a normal longstanding thing. Did the Commanding Officer of the CCF have ulterior motives? strongly doubted. (Mr Copper; remember that this was a long time ago and the publican is probably looking at the grass roots now)

I cite weeks spent on the Norfolk Broads: arranged by a certain housemaster - I suspect that every boy in the house was eventually invited. Lunch would be at a waterside pub, usually likewise supper both paid for by the housemaster and always beer offered even though we were all well under the requisite age. However he never allowed anyone to drink too much. Do I suggest Kit had immoral intentions - no way.

I cite drinks made and distributed in the house by boys about which the housemaster had to be aware. My ginger beer was very definitely non-alcoholic but some of the competing brews were very strange!!!!! I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't contain vodka or the like.

Ergo; don't assume the word alcohol was directly related to grooming at CH.
======================================================
Let me now dwell on an argument seen on TV. recently
On one side; allowing youths alcoholic drink at home when they are young WILL LEAD to later alcoholism and it's collateral unacceptable public behaviour.

On the other side:
- kids as young as six in Cataluna would be given wine mixed 50:50 with water at every meal. Normal behaviour I saw when staying with a family and I saw in hotels. I didn't see a single drunk adult.
-I spent 18 years living in France (6 months a year) and only saw one totally argumentative French drunk in all that time. I did see some Brits the worse for wear at New Year but not the French. Drink consumption over there was sensible
- I had a "strange" youth, I admit it. At lunch time a glass of sherry would be sent down to my "mother" and from the age of perhaps 8 (before I went to CH) I would be allowed a sip. The same at supper with a gin and sherry cocktail. I seem to remember that eventually a second glass would be sent down before dinner when I was somewhat older.
- In the same house, when I moved upstairs I was told that in "that cupboard" is bottled beer "for you so help yourself". Of course luncheon and dinner would be preceded by a glass (as above). That move included some rather different "education". The first such week was on a floating gin palace to "learn all about brandy" and a later one was to "pair wines with oysters and other seafood". (I did say it was a "strange" youth!!!)
- despite that background I claim to not be an alcoholic - there is a half bottle of Malapere wine in the fridge which will take the rest of the week to consume - we drank even less in France in an AOC.

Any arguments on either side?
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Re: Alcohol

Post by marty »

sejintenej wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:10 pm
Ergo; don't assume the word alcohol was directly related to grooming at CH.

Any arguments on either side?
I quite agree. Alcohol, it appears, was just one of many tools used by abusers but as you (rightly in my opinion) argue, not all dishing out of alcohol by masters to pupils is wrong. I'd go so far as to say that being encouraged to drink in moderation is a good thing as it removes the mystery and to some extent, the excitement.

Our housemaster would occasionally (not every week) invite us house monitors in to his flat for drinks. This never happened before any of us were at least 17. The drink would nearly always have been confiscated off younger members of the house and the housemaster would take great delight in telling us the source of the wine or beer he was dishing out: "I found this particular bottle badly hidden in so-and-so's chemistry file. Ho ho!!" There is no doubt in my mind that this was simply a teacher treating us like the young adults we were. There was no inappropriate behaviour or hidden agenda - just 12 blokes sitting round having a beer and a chat.

Even to this day, I rarely drink (and when I do it's in moderation) and I think it was exactly this sort of thing that shaped my attitude to alcohol. If you are given regular small amounts of alcohol from a youngish age you are probably less likely to want to go out and very drunk.
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richardb (Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:54 am)
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Re: Alcohol

Post by scrub »

sejintenej wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:10 pmErgo; don't assume the word alcohol was directly related to grooming at CH.

Any arguments on either side?
Agree with Marty in that context is key when talking about alcohol and CH. There's a notable difference between the dispensing of alcohol by Dobbie and the "one and done" drinks with a housemaster and the other seniors.
marty wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:49 amIf you are given regular small amounts of alcohol from a youngish age you are probably less likely to want to go out and very drunk.
This all depends the person IME. As a kid I'd occasionally be given a small glass of watered down wine or weak shandy at Sunday lunch and maybe a small glass of ginger wine or sloe gin at Christmas. I don't think I've ever been described as a light or moderate drinker, and heavy drinking was very much part of the culture I was in from the age of 20-30. I've known people who never touched a drop until the age of 20 develop a thirst that concerned even me and, on the other hand, people whose childhood was filled with booze and drugs be teetotal/straightedge.
It's down to a mix of genetics and environment and is never that easy to unpick.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by postwarblue »

In my opinion for a teacher to give alcohol to a pupil is, under any circumstances, utterly unprofessional and if discovered should lead to instant dismissal and removal from the profession.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by jtaylor »

I would agree that the approach to alcohol at CH in my time seemed to work fairly well...
The generally accepted approach seemed to be that if you could hold a coherent, no-slurred conversation with a housemaster then they'd usually ignore it. But if you threw-up, were rowdy, violent, noticeably drunk etc. then they'd throw the book at you.
It certainly taught me to have no interest at all in getting completely sozzled, and to this day I've never forgotten an evening (although I know that's not the case for many CH contemporaries!)
There was of course The Grecians' Club, which allowed drinking at 17 onwards on a chit system - for me, that was just some of my Grecians year - but for many they gained entries on their Deps.....

However it can't be denied that alcohol is a powerful grooming tool, as it appears were "smoked oysters" and cigarettes. BUT, I'd agree completely that's definitely NOT the case that all alcohol given is grooming, that's for sure.

I guess parents make their own choice over alcohol at home, and decide upon their policies to teach their kids to drink responsibly. If it had been a 100% no-alcohol approach at CH, then potentially that's such an artificial situation that it's akin to teaching abstinence, or failing to ensure all children are aware of same-sex relationships from an early age. The staff are absolutely in loco parentis - so should be able to make decisions as though they were the parent, so a no-alcohol approach may be wholly inappropriate?

I'd be interested to know what the CH approach to under-age (or even 18+ ) drinking at CH is today, and also of staff giving alcohol to pupils today?
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by richardb »

I suppose cycling shorts were good grooming tools. You could say it showed the dog the rabbit...
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Great Plum »

When I was at CH (92-99), the Grecians’ club sold alcohol to anyone over 17. (I think the law changed after I left on this)

Consequently, having a beer with your housemaster or tutor on your deps and grecians was relatively common but it was, at least in my case - one beer and off out...
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Pe.A »

postwarblue wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:37 pm In my opinion for a teacher to give alcohol to a pupil is, under any circumstances, utterly unprofessional and if discovered should lead to instant dismissal and removal from the profession.
Spoilsport...!!
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Otter (Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:36 pm)
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Pe.A »

richardb wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:59 pm I suppose cycling shorts were good grooming tools. You could say it showed the dog the rabbit...
I'd actually be interested to know more about these parties, and how clandestine they were (if at all...). Think someone on here mentioned that they had heard about them at time. Tbh it struck me as something out of a very surreal version of a Frankie Howerd type film. Not doubting their inappropriateness, but was this some sort of 80s camp risque joke thing? Can't imagine any of my contemporaries actually attending anything similar...
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