CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
jtaylor
Forum Administrator
Posts: 1838
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:32 am
Real Name: Julian Taylor
Location: Wantage, OXON
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 332 times
Contact:

CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by jtaylor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:41 pm

Just seen this published on the CHOBA site:-

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/old ... july-2019/

I guess it’s tough to get this all 100% right, but sounds fair enough in terms of making contacting after each trial, and only then through the police if the victim wants it. Also not assuming what support each person wants or needs.

Julian
These users thanked the author jtaylor for the post (total 3):
marty (Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:45 pm) • Mid A 15 (Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:05 pm) • Great Plum (Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:17 pm)
Rating: 17.65%
Julian Taylor-Gadd
Leigh Hunt 1985-1992
Image
Founder of The Unofficial CH Forum
http://www.grovegeeks.co.uk - IT Support and website design for home, small businesses and charities.

User avatar
Mid A 15
Button Grecian
Posts: 3096
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 1:38 pm
Real Name: Claude Rains
Location: The Patio Of England (Kent)
Has thanked: 125 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by Mid A 15 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:09 pm

jtaylor wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:41 pm
Just seen this published on the CHOBA site:-

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/old ... july-2019/

I guess it’s tough to get this all 100% right, but sounds fair enough in terms of making contacting after each trial, and only then through the police if the victim wants it. Also not assuming what support each person wants or needs.

Julian
Yes, a very well worded and reasonable letter.

The test will be whether what happens in practice matches the expressed theory of course.

That though is true of anything in life and not exclusive to CH.

.....'As we have said previously, it is unthinkable today that the wellbeing and prospects of any
adult would be given priority over the welfare of a child. However, we recognise that the
School must face up to its past and not attempt to hide from it.'.......

I find the above very encouraging if they mean it.
Last edited by Mid A 15 on Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ma A, Mid A 65 -72

sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 3595
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex
Has thanked: 120 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by sejintenej » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:11 pm

To me that looked like the CH site so I asked them why OBs are blocked from reading the statement
"The best way to think outside the box is to not know where the box is"
The"world's best guitar player", Amin Toufani talking about Lygometry

User avatar
Mid A 15
Button Grecian
Posts: 3096
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 1:38 pm
Real Name: Claude Rains
Location: The Patio Of England (Kent)
Has thanked: 125 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by Mid A 15 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:13 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:11 pm
To me that looked like the CH site so I asked them why OBs are blocked from reading the statement
I managed to read and quote from it David.

There's another link to click on I think.
Ma A, Mid A 65 -72

User avatar
jtaylor
Forum Administrator
Posts: 1838
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:32 am
Real Name: Julian Taylor
Location: Wantage, OXON
Has thanked: 60 times
Been thanked: 332 times
Contact:

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by jtaylor » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:16 pm

Julian Taylor-Gadd
Leigh Hunt 1985-1992
Image
Founder of The Unofficial CH Forum
http://www.grovegeeks.co.uk - IT Support and website design for home, small businesses and charities.

User avatar
Great Plum
Button Grecian
Posts: 5266
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:59 am
Real Name: Matt Holdsworth
Location: Reigate
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by Great Plum » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:18 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:11 pm
To me that looked like the CH site so I asked them why OBs are blocked from reading the statement
I think it’s their website that I’ve never liked the design of that seems to hide the link you are trying to find!
Maine B - 1992-95 Maine A 1995-99

sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 3595
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex
Has thanked: 120 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by sejintenej » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:48 pm

Thanks, Julian.

Yes, that is far more sensible in that they are already helping some, that they have contacted others through the police allowing those victims to contact the school, that no time limit has been set and that there seem to be no reasonable limits set.......

All it needs now is for the rest of Rob's estimated 95+ to see this and be willing to make a choice.
"The best way to think outside the box is to not know where the box is"
The"world's best guitar player", Amin Toufani talking about Lygometry

User avatar
J.R.
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15699
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:53 pm
Real Name: John Rutley
Location: Dorking, Surrey
Has thanked: 360 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by J.R. » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:52 pm

I agree with a lot of the views posted above.

I have read the letter twice now, and in my view, fine as far as it goes, but does it go far enough ???

I'm sure the HM and senior staff are under a lot of pressure on what and exactly how much to say by their 'Legal Eagles'.
John Rutley. Prep B & Coleridge B. 1958-1963.

TMF
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:03 am
Real Name: TMF
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by TMF » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:05 pm

I think that the letter is encouraging.

Here are the things that worry me:

I believe that Simon Reid was a teacher at the school in the 1990s - and as others have noted - there was knowledge of things going on among the staff in the school in the 1990s.

We also know that there must have been knowledge among the governors - e.g. one governor (as a pupil) had been lured into a teacher's car - and that teacher suddenly departed thereafter. So that particular governor must have had a sense of a cover up culture until rather recently.

I also suspect that the '100' number is a lower bound - the essence of that estimate is that about 25% of victims of convicted teachers have come forward. There are 25 victims that have come forward so far - so there are likely 100 victims in total. However, there are many additional teachers ('there were others') who departed suddenly. These teachers might have left for personal reasons, perhaps they just assaulted someone physically and not sexually (as has been described recently, and left discretely), or perhaps 'they had something of the night about them'. Some offenders may no longer be around e.g. Pink, Buck, Hayden(?), etc.

It seems to me that the percentage of abusers among the staff was significant. In the 1970s I was taught by Webb and Husband - and I was in houses with two sudden departure teachers. I suspect that the school maintained the population distribution and cover up policy for many years. Many people accept that baseline, 'the past is another country' etc.

I do not think that fraudulent use of help from the school for treatment would be a significant problem. A small amount of credential checking on the submitted bills would be easy to do (like the old blue who described sending his dental bills to the school for dental trauma suffered at the hand of Dickie Dawe). This would be the very least that the school should do - and fuller compensation be handled on a case by case basis.

I don't mean to start a debate on numbers - or evolving societal patterns - or bill checking - I just thought I would mention my perspective. The letter to me looks like a step in a positive direction.
These users thanked the author TMF for the post:
bakunin (Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:18 am)
Rating: 5.88%

LHA
Deputy Grecian
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:35 pm
Real Name: Charles Henry
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by LHA » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:30 pm

TMF wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:05 pm
I think that the letter is encouraging.

Here are the things that worry me:

I believe that Simon Reid was a teacher at the school in the 1990s - and as others have noted - there was knowledge of things going on among the staff in the school in the 1990s.

We also know that there must have been knowledge among the governors - e.g. one governor (as a pupil) had been lured into a teacher's car - and that teacher suddenly departed thereafter. So that particular governor must have had a sense of a cover up culture until rather recently.

I also suspect that the '100' number is a lower bound - the essence of that estimate is that about 25% of victims of convicted teachers have come forward. There are 25 victims that have come forward so far - so there are likely 100 victims in total. However, there are many additional teachers ('there were others') who departed suddenly. These teachers might have left for personal reasons, perhaps they just assaulted someone physically and not sexually (as has been described recently, and left discretely), or perhaps 'they had something of the night about them'. Some offenders may no longer be around e.g. Pink, Buck, Hayden(?), etc.

It seems to me that the percentage of abusers among the staff was significant. In the 1970s I was taught by Webb and Husband - and I was in houses with two sudden departure teachers. I suspect that the school maintained the population distribution and cover up policy for many years. Many people accept that baseline, 'the past is another country' etc.

I do not think that fraudulent use of help from the school for treatment would be a significant problem. A small amount of credential checking on the submitted bills would be easy to do (like the old blue who described sending his dental bills to the school for dental trauma suffered at the hand of Dickie Dawe). This would be the very least that the school should do - and fuller compensation be handled on a case by case basis.

I don't mean to start a debate on numbers - or evolving societal patterns - or bill checking - I just thought I would mention my perspective. The letter to me looks like a step in a positive direction.
Thanks - a really thoughtful post.

Who suddenly departed in your time? Not familiar with the story re dental bills, which sounds concerning.

Please share as much as possible.

Avon
Deputy Grecian
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:39 pm
Real Name: Ed Bell
Has thanked: 83 times
Been thanked: 108 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by Avon » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:10 pm

The letter is even handed, but staid. My feeling is that there is real nervousness about liability here.

If the school ever goes close to admitting that there was organisational incompetence in the period of interest, then this needn’t be just about sexual abuse. There were some awful cases of bullying in my time, notably in LHB under Sillett and Lamb B under Shippen. If the school admits that it covered up sexual abuse, then are there some cases to answer in terms of bullying?
These users thanked the author Avon for the post (total 4):
richardb (Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:35 am) • Otter (Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:27 am) • sejintenej (Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:39 am) • J.R. (Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:33 pm)
Rating: 23.53%

TMF
GE (Great Erasmus)
Posts: 120
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:03 am
Real Name: TMF
Has thanked: 166 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by TMF » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:54 am

LHA wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:30 pm

Who suddenly departed in your time? Not familiar with the story re dental bills, which sounds concerning.

Please share as much as possible.
Here are some sudden departure examples - not including the now convicted teachers (some of whom also left suddenly, of course).

AH Buck:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2947&start=30#p90606

"a certain (bachelor) junior housemaster was reportedly found in some way in flagrante with someone":
http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 6&#p141776

"a certain history teacher in the early 1970s (discussed elsewhere as a man whose car you would not want to get in)":
http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 9&#p141409

"I know of two such cases who went in 1955 and 1957"
http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 7&#p136949

"There were others" (i.e. sudden departures) - as mentioned by Howard Holdsworth here:
http://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic.p ... 60#p142395

'Macracken was one of those who left unexpectedly at the end of a term. I suppose he was one of the several ‘second-level’ teachers employed during WW2 and in the few years following, when many potential ‘first-level’ male teachers were unavailable. In contrast there was another sort of much rarer, unexpected dismissal in the midst of a term. Such a one was GRG Grice (junior housemaster, Thornton B) a couple of years later.'
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5121&p=139942&#p139942

McCall:
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5209&start=150#p142941
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5209&p=143000&h#p143000

As we saw with Vilified, there may be lots of background and justification in such departure cases. This shouldn't be taken as a set of accusations - just an indication that sudden departures happened.

The two people I noted who were in my houses departed after my time as a pupil. Burr departed during my time.

Here is the link to the Dickie Dawe/dental bill incident/story:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4140&p=126480&#p126480

There are other posts indicating these types of incident - where apparently there were not sudden departures. E.g. here is a post from a girl who talks about 'an inappropriate' relationship that she had with a teacher (this post was in 2011):
'In my last couple of years, I had an inappropriate relationship with a male teacher. At the time, I believed we were equals. As an adult, I am appalled.'

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3856&p=118418#p118418

This site contains a fair amount of output from people trying to understand some of the incidents and people that they encountered as children...
These users thanked the author TMF for the post (total 4):
richardb (Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:39 am) • J.R. (Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:42 pm) • LHA (Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:46 pm) • bakunin (Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:22 am)
Rating: 23.53%

sejintenej
Button Grecian
Posts: 3595
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:19 pm
Real Name: David Brown ColA '52-'61
Location: Essex
Has thanked: 120 times
Been thanked: 62 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by sejintenej » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:48 am

Avon wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:10 pm
then are there some cases to answer in terms of bullying?
Far more difficult - you would have to define the type of bullying that you are looking at and what to exclude.
- several boys holding the victim as he is attacked
Older boy on younger boy
Same age but different sizes
One-off or systematic.
Existing conditions - for example a fist in the middle of a rugby scrum
Extent of injury - a bruise / sicker treatment / hospital A & E?

You also have to consider the risk to the victim if the school acted against the bully - OK if bully expelled but otherwise the victim could have been hurt far worse for cooperating with any enquiry.
"The best way to think outside the box is to not know where the box is"
The"world's best guitar player", Amin Toufani talking about Lygometry

Katharine
Button Grecian
Posts: 3115
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:44 pm
Real Name: Katharine Dobson
Location: Gwynedd
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 50 times

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by Katharine » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:05 am

TMF wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:54 am


There are other posts indicating these types of incident - where apparently there were not sudden departures. E.g. here is a post from a girl who talks about 'an inappropriate' relationship that she had with a teacher (this post was in 2011):
'In my last couple of years, I had an inappropriate relationship with a male teacher. At the time, I believed we were equals. As an adult, I am appalled.'

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3856&p=118418#p118418

This site contains a fair amount of output from people trying to understand some of the incidents and people that they encountered as children...
I would just point out the girl’s case quoted above was at Hertford rather than Horsham, dealt with appallingly all the same.
Katharine Dobson (Hills) 6.14, 1959 - 1965
Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!

barnemj
2nd Former
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:00 pm
Real Name: Mark Barnes
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: CH Letter re support for abuse survivors

Post by barnemj » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:12 am

I'm really struggling with any allegation against Dick Dawe. He was a fabulous teacher and, in my opinion, role model. The odd bit of chalk was fired across the room during environmental studies. He died a few years ago but I still remember meeting him at Old Blue lunches where his wisdom shone through. I would, however, have asked him re his knowledge of the events that have come to light as I find it hard to believe he would have not done anything.
Re bullying - in my time during the 70's if you stood up against the bullies you only endured further horrendous mental and physical torture. Rev Robson/ Tony Waller were key men against the bullying / fagging and whilst Newsome paid lip service nothing really happened. Bullying is still a huge problem today (poor lad throwing himself in front of a train last week) but the main problem at CH was you had to live with it 24 hours a day!
One good thing is that you made lifelong friends with the people who supported you.
I was fortunate to not come across the horrific abuse that we have all been learning about but suffered at the hands of bullies and paid a great cost in standing up to them.
These masters preyed on our immaturity and trusting minds. We had no choice as they were the only people we could turn to if we were being bullied / homesick / poorly. I am simply devastated to hear of the suffering that was taking place seemingly whilst the majority of us carried on in our own little worlds.

Post Reply