THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

This section was setup in August 2018 in order to move the existing related discussions from other sections into this new section to group them together, and separate from the other CH-related topics.

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Foureyes
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THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by Foureyes » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:21 pm

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/ ... t-2018.pdf

I have seen the IICSA report on Downside and Ampleforth referred to in passing on this site, but wonder how many have read it in its entirety (address above)? It makes for unpleasant, depressing and shocking reading, but is well worth the effort.

At the time of the offences described, these two schools were run by monks of the Order of St Benedict (OSB), which made them different in degree from C.H., although certain religious people at C.H. would seem to have had much in common with the behaviour of some of the Benedictine community.

David :shock:
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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by J.R. » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:56 pm

I have BRIEFLY read bits of it.

Harrowing reading.
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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by bakunin » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:49 pm

Recommendations made by Dr Ruth and Dr Elizabeth Mann were not followed, and
there was disagreement as to how some offending monks, including Piers Grant‑Ferris and
Gregory Carroll, should be dealt with, including in respect of reporting them to the statutory
authorities. As a result, both the Manns fell out of favour with Abbot Timothy Wright.
Again, this huge institutional reluctance to report major crimes and instead cover them up for the sake of reputation, or perhaps something more sinister.

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by Foureyes » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:09 am

I forgot to add that the former Abbot of Buckfast Abbey - also a Benedictine institution - was sent to prison for 15 months in 2007 for abuse of children at the abbey's prep school between 1971 and 1978.
I take no pleasure in drawing attention to these events as I am a Catholic myself, but it does surprise me that the reputation of the Benedictine order seems to have survived relatively unscathed.
David :shock:

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by rockfreak » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:46 pm

The monks were probably all rat-assed on Benedictine.

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by sejintenej » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:37 pm

Foureyes wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:09 am
I forgot to add that the former Abbot of Buckfast Abbey - also a Benedictine institution - was sent to prison for 15 months in 2007 for abuse of children at the abbey's prep school between 1971 and 1978.
I take no pleasure in drawing attention to these events as I am a Catholic myself, but it does surprise me that the reputation of the Benedictine order seems to have survived relatively unscathed.
David :shock:
It is not just the Benedictine Order; there was an order of nuns in Dublin which was as bad or probably far worse. Infinitely worse in terms of torture and killings over centuries was the Dominican Order but these days they are not connected to their historical actions..There are scandals in many many countries and I suspect that most are being still hidden from view. I was on the outside looking in during the Banco Ambrosiano affair which was tied in to the Chicago prelate running OPERE -the RC financial affairs centre in Rome. I had actually met one of them a decade before and refused to deal with anyone connected.
IMHO the problems are that the RC church is too controlled from Rome with local areas having absolutely no permitted opinions. It does not have worldly-wise people in positions of influence and it is so big that any change takes far far too long.
There is an absolute mountain of writings by insiders on the internet spelling out the problems and faults of the RCs. That is not to say that other religions and non-religious organisations are spotless - many of them are not.
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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by postwarblue » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:38 pm

My opinion is that that with the politicisation of the Church by the Emperor Constantine in the 4th century AD the RC church ceased to be credible as a Christian institution.
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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by sejintenej » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:39 pm

postwarblue wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:38 pm
My opinion is that that with the politicisation of the Church by the Emperor Constantine in the 4th century AD the RC church ceased to be credible as a Christian institution.
If you are referring to Nicaea, although Constantine arranged it he was neither Chair (someone from Spain but I would have to look up the name) nor a speaker and probably the conference was necessary. I wouldn't place all the blame on him personally. There were six or eight Christian Churches with different beliefs and the idea was to try to a gree on what was "correct".
Nicaea was of course, only the first of many councils and yes, they did muck things up for several millenia. It had to be male only, and they were of course brought up in a particular mindset where women were to be bedded and not otherwise heard of instead of being prime movers as they had been in the first centuries. Thus it was that Christ's wife was demoted to being a whore and her epistle destroyed; men come first and still do in the RC church.

As a friend of mine has written, everything is handled by the Vatican - his (he is an ex RC priest) country was given special permission to open a council to discuss Christianity - PROVIDED always that what they decided was what Rome had handed down. It is interesting to read how Rome manoeuvred itself into apparent primacy - the standoff about Albania is a clear example.

If you think that was bad, look at Innocent III (assisted by Simon de Montfort) or even the Borgias (who were not actually as bad as him.)

I have written elsewhere that the RC church is so huge that it is extremely difficult for it to change course and of course the Cardinals have a vested interest in "no change"; don't forget that the last (retired) Pope was head on the (renamed)Inquisition before being "chosen".

What is NOT publicised is that there still exist a number of other original Christian churches from those early days and the Vatican recognises them - a bishop from the Ethiopian Church (one of the originals) actually had a speaking part at the last Royal Wedding. They are all in communion with the Vatican being represented at the enthronement of each new Pope.

I think that this should be the subject of a different thread.
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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by Pe.A » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 am

rockfreak wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:46 pm
The monks were probably all rat-assed on Benedictine.
I believe the monks at Buckfast Abbey make their own tonic wine...f

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by Foureyes » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 am

"I believe the monks at Buckfast Abbey make their own tonic wine..."
Indeed, they do - and it is very potent. It is the drink of choice in many bars in central Scotland, particularly Glasgow.
Buckfast Abbey is just down the road from me and the monks are so proficient at money-making schemes that their home is known locally as 'Fastbuck Abbey.'
David :shock:

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by Pe.A » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:47 am

postwarblue wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:38 pm
My opinion is that that with the politicisation of the Church by the Emperor Constantine in the 4th century AD the RC church ceased to be credible as a Christian institution.
Really? What are you basing that on...?

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by Pe.A » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:53 am

Foureyes wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 am
"I believe the monks at Buckfast Abbey make their own tonic wine..."
Indeed, they do - and it is very potent. It is the drink of choice in many bars in central Scotland, particularly Glasgow.
Buckfast Abbey is just down the road from me and the monks are so proficient at money-making schemes that their home is known locally as 'Fastbuck Abbey.'
David :shock:
It's actually homeless people and teenagers who go for it, mostly, in and around Glasgow. Hell of a kick as it's 15% and high in caffeine. Tastes quite nice aswell :D

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by J.R. » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:58 pm

Pe.A wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:53 am
Foureyes wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:06 am
"I believe the monks at Buckfast Abbey make their own tonic wine..."
Indeed, they do - and it is very potent. It is the drink of choice in many bars in central Scotland, particularly Glasgow.
Buckfast Abbey is just down the road from me and the monks are so proficient at money-making schemes that their home is known locally as 'Fastbuck Abbey.'
David :shock:
It's actually homeless people and teenagers who go for it, mostly, in and around Glasgow. Hell of a kick as it's 15% and high in caffeine. Tastes quite nice aswell :D
Maybe something one shouldn't admit to !!

I have to say, I've NEVER sampled it :drinkers:
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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by loringa » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm

sejintenej wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:39 pm

Thus it was that Christ's wife was demoted to being a whore and her epistle destroyed; men come first and still do in the RC church.
Oh come on David - you can't have imagined you would get away without this assertion being challenged? Whilst I very much like the idea of Mary Magdalene being Jesus' wife along with the idea, not sure it is much more than that, that the Gospel of Mary was both contemporaneous and written by Mary Magdalene as opposed to any of the other Marys known known or believed to have been related to him, the evidence that he was married to Mary Magdalene is hardly overwhelming!

Scholars disagree both about when the Gospel of Mary was written, possibly contemporaneously but more probably in the 2nd Century AD or so I understand, and who wrote it. If it was actually written in the early decades of Jesus' life I understand that Mary Magdalene is one of three possible candidates: Mary Magdalene, a sister named Mary and, of course, his mother but I find it very hard to believe that any of them would have been literate enough even to dictate such a work. I don't know of any other Epistle of Mary but then I haven't studied Divinity since the Lower Fourth!

Of course, it is highly possible that Jesus was married; most men of his age would have been though he was hardly 'most' men. As I said, I like the idea of him being married to Mary Magdalene I just don't think there is sufficient evidence to assert this as a fact.

As for the role of women in the Catholic Church ... a discussion for another thread as you suggest.

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Re: THE DOWNSIDE/AMPLEFORTH REPORT

Post by sejintenej » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:13 pm

loringa wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:03 pm
sejintenej wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:39 pm

Thus it was that Christ's wife was demoted to being a whore and her epistle destroyed; men come first and still do in the RC church.
Palestine
Oh come on David - you can't have imagined you would get away without this assertion being challenged? Whilst I very much like the idea of Mary Magdalene being Jesus' wife along with the idea, not sure it is much more than that,
Certainly! There are references to "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Not wording which would be used to describe a man nor Jesus sister nor His mother.. There are two (perhaps more) conflicting subsequent stories: a) after the crucifiction Mary Magdalene fled and went with her daughter Helen to Saintes Marie de la Mer (or Aigues Mortes - they are close) and thence towards Couiza or b) she fled to Ephesus where a Christian community sprang up..
Both places make their own claims and the reference to Helen makes a good story!!!!.
that the Gospel of Mary was both contemporaneous and written by Mary Magdalene as opposed to any of the other Marys known known or believed to have been related to him, the evidence that he was married to Mary Magdalene is hardly overwhelming!
The point I was really trying to make was that the Male bosses ordered all such writings to be destroyed because they, the bosses, were pushing other stories. I would suggest Mein Kamph and the works of Stalin and Lenin as being more modern equivalents. In this case one can try to argue that the order was gender based but I think that that is difficult to prove.
Scholars disagree both about when the Gospel of Mary was written, possibly contemporaneously but more probably in the 2nd Century AD or so I understand, and who wrote it. If it was actually written in the early decades of Jesus' life I understand that Mary Magdalene is one of three possible candidates: Mary Magdalene, a sister named Mary and, of course, his mother but I find it very hard to believe that any of them would have been literate enough even to dictate such a work. I don't know of any other Epistle of Mary but then I haven't studied Divinity since the Lower Fourth!
I suspect and there are scholarly arguments that most if not all those texts plus the four Gospels, the Acts etc were written long after the crucifixion
Of course, it is highly possible that Jesus was married; most men of his age would have been though he was hardly 'most' men. As I said, I like the idea of him being married to Mary Magdalene I just don't think there is sufficient evidence to assert this as a fact.
Jesus did have a position in the Synagogue and it would be unusual for such a person to be unmarried - that was the "norm".

Of course there are all sorts of ideas floating around; one is that He was a member of a sect within Judaism which practised certain procedures and had a knowledge of herbs - this latter it is suggested allowed the sponge put to His lips to be soaked in either a pain killer or even a poison.

I strongly doubt if we will ever know the truth. Suspicions about the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum would be misleading; secretum means "private" and the contents are, in theory only up to 4 centuries old. However there is a reference to included documents from 1307.

This discussion was about the RC Church and its handling of reports of improper actions though one could legitimately expand that to most religions. We started off looking at actions during the 20th century but, as we are all aware, acceptable behaviour changes over time.
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