Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

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loringa
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by loringa »

bakunin wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:19 pm They shouldn't be allowed to call it "historical abuse" until they have PROVED it isn't still going on. The default assumption should be that it still is. No one currently or previously employed there has been able to give any substantial, concrete description of how safeguarding procedures have improved, except for having a security perimeter, which actually makes things worse as it traps the kids inside CH more, it makes CH even more of an isolated community (and we know isolation enables child abuse). Every single child abuse act committed against the pupils of Christs' Hospital was done by people who worked there, as far as we know. There were no paedos lurking in bushes waiting for an unsuspecting pupil in Shelley's wood or desperately pawing at the gates trying to get in, every single crime that we know of was committed by a teacher or priest (priest is merely a synonym for useless layabout and manipulator, or worse).
You make some interesting points here though I would suggest that most (though clearly not all) abuse is perpetrated by people known to the victim so there is nothing unique about the horrors perpetrated at Christ's Hospital in that sense at least.

Unfortunately, I think your arguments lose much of their impact by the effect of your final comment, which I have highlighted and underlined to differentiate it from your own highlighted emphases. I guess you have a beef with priests of all sorts but by ranting like this, your otherwise cogent and interesting comments lose much of their impact, and risk their credibility. It does seem to be something of a trend on this forum: some contributor or other makes valid and interesting points and then deflates their own argument by descending into a rant, often about something largely unrelated. I probably do it myself but that shouldn't detract from the point I am trying to make.
barnemj
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by barnemj »

Andrew - thank you for your comment re Bakunim's assertions earlier this year. My dear Father was a priest and I take offence at his comment. Perhaps some people should give thought to their comments before pressing the send button?
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by AMP »

loringa wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:08 am
bakunin wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:19 pm They shouldn't be allowed to call it "historical abuse" until they have PROVED it isn't still going on. The default assumption should be that it still is. No one currently or previously employed there has been able to give any substantial, concrete description of how safeguarding procedures have improved, except for having a security perimeter, which actually makes things worse as it traps the kids inside CH more, it makes CH even more of an isolated community (and we know isolation enables child abuse). Every single child abuse act committed against the pupils of Christs' Hospital was done by people who worked there, as far as we know. There were no paedos lurking in bushes waiting for an unsuspecting pupil in Shelley's wood or desperately pawing at the gates trying to get in, every single crime that we know of was committed by a teacher or priest
You make some interesting points here though I would suggest that most (though clearly not all) abuse is perpetrated by people known to the victim so there is nothing unique about the horrors perpetrated at Christ's Hospital in that sense at least.
It's the facilitators I really loathe. They are the ones who could have nipped it in the bud.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that there was a wall of silence in Common Room. Nobody had the moral fibre to report a friend or colleague for fear of being ostracised themselves.
I do not know how any safeguarding measures can prevent that in a close knit community.
Add to that a combination of laziness and ignorance and you have a perfect storm. Some victims were threatened with punishment for having "affairs" no less!
I know of only one case where somebody actually had a backbone and it wasn't a teacher.
R F Salisbury, the Clerk of Christ's Hospital, was so outraged when he heard a teacher had been moved on, that he went over the heads of the Headmaster and Council of Almoners and reported that person to the Department of Education.
That teacher was then summoned and given a warning about their future conduct and that their license would be revoked otherwise. (I don't know why the sanction was so feeble)
So there were systems and mechanisms in place for dealing with abuse, even 40 or more years ago.
And of course, there was the law.
Last edited by AMP on Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Katharine
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by Katharine »

barnemj wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:20 am Andrew - thank you for your comment re Bakunim's assertions earlier this year. My dear Father was a priest and I take offence at his comment. Perhaps some people should give thought to their comments before pressing the send button?
You are not the only one Mark, my OB Dad was also a priest, as were my uncle and my grandfather.
Last edited by Katharine on Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Katharine Dobson (Hills) 6.14, 1959 - 1965
richardb
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by richardb »

AMP wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:28 am
loringa wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:08 am
bakunin wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:19 pm They shouldn't be allowed to call it "historical abuse" until they have PROVED it isn't still going on. The default assumption should be that it still is. No one currently or previously employed there has been able to give any substantial, concrete description of how safeguarding procedures have improved, except for having a security perimeter, which actually makes things worse as it traps the kids inside CH more, it makes CH even more of an isolated community (and we know isolation enables child abuse). Every single child abuse act committed against the pupils of Christs' Hospital was done by people who worked there, as far as we know. There were no paedos lurking in bushes waiting for an unsuspecting pupil in Shelley's wood or desperately pawing at the gates trying to get in, every single crime that we know of was committed by a teacher or priest
You make some interesting points here though I would suggest that most (though clearly not all) abuse is perpetrated by people known to the victim so there is nothing unique about the horrors perpetrated at Christ's Hospital in that sense at least.
It's the facilitators I really loathe. They are the ones who could have nipped it in the bud.
It's becoming increasingly apparent that there was a wall of silence in Common Room. Nobody had the moral fibre to out a friend or colleague for fear of being ostracised themselves.
I do not know how any safeguarding measures can prevent that in a close knit community.
Add to that a combination of laziness and ignorance and you have a perfect storm. Some victims were threatened with punishment for having "affairs" no less!
I know of only one case where somebody actually had a backbone and it wasn't a teacher.
R F Salisbury, the Clerk of Christ's Hospital, was so outraged when he heard a teacher had been moved on, that he went over the heads of the Headmaster and Council of Almoners and reported that person to the Department of Education.
That teacher was then summoned and given a warning about their future conduct and that their license would be revoked otherwise. (I don't know why the sanction was so feeble)
So there were systems and mechanisms in place for dealing with abuse, even 40 or more years ago.
And of course, there was the law.
You are absolutely right about the Common Room.
bakunin
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by bakunin »

loringa wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:08 am You make some interesting points here though I would suggest that most (though clearly not all) abuse is perpetrated by people known to the victim so there is nothing unique about the horrors perpetrated at Christ's Hospital in that sense at least.

Unfortunately, I think your arguments lose much of their impact by the effect of your final comment, which I have highlighted and underlined to differentiate it from your own highlighted emphases. I guess you have a beef with priests of all sorts but by ranting like this, your otherwise cogent and interesting comments lose much of their impact, and risk their credibility.
Yes, ignore my last sentence - I should really be aiming to persuade or inform rather than express my anger or let off steam.
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by sejintenej »

richardb wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:38 pm
I know of only one case where somebody actually had a backbone and it wasn't a teacher.
R F Salisbury, the Clerk of Christ's Hospital, was so outraged when he heard a teacher had been moved on, that he went over the heads of the Headmaster and Council of Almoners and reported that person to the Department of Education.
That teacher was then summoned and given a warning about their future conduct and that their license would be revoked otherwise.
Not sure if I have the correct attribution

I know that CH is TRYING to bring in fully effective systems but every plan fails when the first shot is fired . If that Department of Education option (or similar) is still available then it seems a good idea to ensure that all adults at the school made aware of it; that alone might even scare off any would-be attacker
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by rockfreak »

I suppose that in any industry a freemasonry develops in which people are unwilling to rat on a colleague with whom they may have become friends. The problems of trying to prove what they think they've seen or heard. Oi! headmaster! I believe that Mr Jones is spending suspiciously long hanging around the sixth form girls' changing room. And I believe I saw him grabbing a girl's boob last week. Well I think that's what I saw anyway.
And how do you take such teachers to court and definitively prove their silence or complicity? Quite difficult I would have thought.
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by J.R. »

Not so difficult in this day and age Freaky !
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sejintenej
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by sejintenej »

J.R. wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:12 pm Not so difficult in this day and age Freaky !
You beat me to it! . If there is a suspicion then the authorities can at least keep a look out for evidence.

CCTV is almost everywhere now - at the time of the CU building bomb in the City 95% of the entire outdoors in the CITY was already covered by CCTV. At that time (but no longer) it was poor quality but even then software had been developed which could remove the balaclava from a face caught on quality CCTV to give a recognisable portrait of the wearer

Just read about a case (abroad) where CCTV cameras were being hidden in a uni residence bedrooms by unauthorised individuals. They were caught in time through purchase records.
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What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by Pe.A »

sejintenej wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:22 pm
richardb wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:38 pm
I know of only one case where somebody actually had a backbone and it wasn't a teacher.
R F Salisbury, the Clerk of Christ's Hospital, was so outraged when he heard a teacher had been moved on, that he went over the heads of the Headmaster and Council of Almoners and reported that person to the Department of Education.
That teacher was then summoned and given a warning about their future conduct and that their license would be revoked otherwise.
Not sure if I have the correct attribution

I know that CH is TRYING to bring in fully effective systems but every plan fails when the first shot is fired . If that Department of Education option (or similar) is still available then it seems a good idea to ensure that all adults at the school made aware of it; that alone might even scare off any would-be attacker
You're absolutely right. It's a historical truism that "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy". But with regards to the Department of Education, I always thought it odd that it's not mentioned more often that they knew about Webb in the 80s but seemingly didn't deem it fit to relay it to the police.
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by Pe.A »

rockfreak wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:30 pm I suppose that in any industry a freemasonry develops in which people are unwilling to rat on a colleague with whom they may have become friends. The problems of trying to prove what they think they've seen or heard. Oi! headmaster! I believe that Mr Jones is spending suspiciously long hanging around the sixth form girls' changing room. And I believe I saw him grabbing a girl's boob last week. Well I think that's what I saw anyway.
And how do you take such teachers to court and definitively prove their silence or complicity? Quite difficult I would have thought.
Not that I believe there were as many staff, as some people like to make out, who could be described as complicit. I think people are generally oblivious to a lot of things. I do think you touch upon something important though. The problems of trying to prove what one thinks they've seen or heard. It's made even trickier the further back in time you go. In the 70s/80s etc, for example, far more corroboration was needed before the police/CPS would be willing to prosecute. Authority figures were generally trusted more, certainly with regards to children/pupils, and things were more easily denied or explained away.
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by richardb »

sejintenej wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:22 pm
richardb wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:38 pm
I know of only one case where somebody actually had a backbone and it wasn't a teacher.
R F Salisbury, the Clerk of Christ's Hospital, was so outraged when he heard a teacher had been moved on, that he went over the heads of the Headmaster and Council of Almoners and reported that person to the Department of Education.
That teacher was then summoned and given a warning about their future conduct and that their license would be revoked otherwise.
Not sure if I have the correct attribution

I know that CH is TRYING to bring in fully effective systems but every plan fails when the first shot is fired . If that Department of Education option (or similar) is still available then it seems a good idea to ensure that all adults at the school made aware of it; that alone might even scare off any would-be attacker
Wasn't my comment that you quoted.
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Re: Bishop Ball documentary BBC2 2100 TONIGHT

Post by richardb »

Pe.A wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:35 pm
rockfreak wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:30 pm I suppose that in any industry a freemasonry develops in which people are unwilling to rat on a colleague with whom they may have become friends. The problems of trying to prove what they think they've seen or heard. Oi! headmaster! I believe that Mr Jones is spending suspiciously long hanging around the sixth form girls' changing room. And I believe I saw him grabbing a girl's boob last week. Well I think that's what I saw anyway.
And how do you take such teachers to court and definitively prove their silence or complicity? Quite difficult I would have thought.
Not that I believe there were as many staff, as some people like to make out, who could be described as complicit. I think people are generally oblivious to a lot of things. I do think you touch upon something important though. The problems of trying to prove what one thinks they've seen or heard. It's made even trickier the further back in time you go. In the 70s/80s etc, for example, far more corroboration was needed before the police/CPS would be willing to prosecute. Authority figures were generally trusted more, certainly with regards to children/pupils, and things were more easily denied or explained away.
You make a valid point about corroboration.

Around 1994 the rules on corroboration were abolished. Before then the evidence of a "child of tender tears" had to be corroborated before an accused could be convicted. Corroboration was defined as independent evidence tending to show that a crime had been committed and that the accused was guilty of it.

The evidence of one child could corroborate the evidence of another.

It made it difficult to prosecute "single victim" cases such as would have been the case with Martin. But serial offenders such as Burr, Webb and Dobbie could still have been convicted.

It meant a lot of sex offenders escaped justice.
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