Now it reaches Eton

[loringa]

Loringa says, "After an education at Christ's Hospital you are firmly one of us". What a strange idea. No, I'm one of me. Christ's Hospital was where I went to school.

Well I can't disagree that the 'real world' doesn't start until one leaves education, and I include tertiary education in that, but whatever your roots you are firmly, wholly and definitely a member of the middle classes. You may not, Corbyn-like, have been born to it, but your privileged education means you are whether you like it or not.

Incidentally, I was amused to hear Sir Keir Starmer reluctantly concede that he was middle class. Grammar school / Independent school, university, QC, former DPP, knighthood, MP - what exactly did he think he might be?

Why would he wish not to be middle class anyway?

[sejintenej]

I’m thick, so I don’t understand Sejintenej’s aphorism at the end of his contribution. Please explain? Thanks. TB

I think I'll leave it to David to explain !!

a collection of crows is called a murder. Don't ask me why

[J.R.]

I’m thick, so I don’t understand Sejintenej’s aphorism at the end of his contribution. Please explain? Thanks. TB

I think I'll leave it to David to explain !!

a collection of crows is called a murder. Don't ask me why

Thank you David.
I didn't want to steal your thunder.

[Foureyes]

There have been a number of adverse comment about the character witnesses in the Karim case, the latest being above: "Have I got this right but wasn't it parents and alumni of Eton and Queen's Club who appeared in the box as witnesses to attest to Karim's excellent character when he was up before the beak?"

It seems to me that this is to misunderstand the role of such witnesses, who are required to tell the court about the accused as they knew him/her. They are very unlikely to have known anything about the accused's misdeeds and, in fact, most such criminals keep their public life quite separate from whatever it is that they have been up to. For example, I used to meet a person (let's call him A) at conferences and, occasionally, in his office. Had I been asked I would have described him as an honest, pleasant man, very knowledgeable about his profession, and a source of sound advice to me and members of the various committees we both served on. At one such meeting he was represented by his deputy and when I asked where A was the latter looked very embarrassed, muttered something and moved away rapidly. I later learnt that A had been abusing his 14-years old daughter and had been doing so for at least the past two years. He was duly charged and went to prison. My point is that there was no way I could have suspected him of such a crime and had I been called to court to attest to his character all I could have said would have been based on what I knew of him, which was entirely satisfactory. I was certainly in no position to judge whether, or not, he was guilty of the charges, that was the task of the jury.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am in no way defending Karim, but can understand how he could have presented himself as pleasant, amiable and good at his job to parents of children at his school or fellow members of the Queen's Club.

David

[Pe.A]

Loringa says, "After an education at Christ's Hospital you are firmly one of us". What a strange idea. No, I'm one of me. Christ's Hospital was where I went to school.

Well I can't disagree that the 'real world' doesn't start until one leaves education, and I include tertiary education in that, but whatever your roots you are firmly, wholly and definitely a member of the middle classes. You may not, Corbyn-like, have been born to it, but your privileged education means you are whether you like it or not.

Incidentally, I was amused to hear Sir Keir Starmer reluctantly concede that he was middle class. Grammar school / Independent school, university, QC, former DPP, knighthood, MP - what exactly did he think he might be?

Why would he wish not to be middle class anyway?

Exactly.

Class really is an British obsession, and a pretentious one at that. On the Continent it really is a case of 'it's not where you're from, it's where you're at'. You could be born dirt poor, get a decent education and have a 'white collar' job and be counted as one of the middling classes, on paper. In this country, it's different and has become even more odd. The term working class used to be socio-economic, but now is more social than economic. In this country it seems to the reverse of what's true in the rest of Europe. You are what you were born as (or rather what your parents were), and that's that...

[Pe.A]

You mention pastoral care. What's wrong with your own pastoral care? Are you and your wife unable to bring up your children? Or perhaps just lazy? Why send them to strangers to do the job?

Does it matter...?

[Mid A 15]

There have been a number of adverse comment about the character witnesses in the Karim case, the latest being above: "Have I got this right but wasn't it parents and alumni of Eton and Queen's Club who appeared in the box as witnesses to attest to Karim's excellent character when he was up before the beak?"

It seems to me that this is to misunderstand the role of such witnesses, who are required to tell the court about the accused as they knew him/her. They are very unlikely to have known anything about the accused's misdeeds and, in fact, most such criminals keep their public life quite separate from whatever it is that they have been up to. For example, I used to meet a person (let's call him A) at conferences and, occasionally, in his office. Had I been asked I would have described him as an honest, pleasant man, very knowledgeable about his profession, and a source of sound advice to me and members of the various committees we both served on. At one such meeting he was represented by his deputy and when I asked where A was the latter looked very embarrassed, muttered something and moved away rapidly. I later learnt that A had been abusing his 14-years old daughter and had been doing so for at least the past two years. He was duly charged and went to prison. My point is that there was no way I could have suspected him of such a crime and had I been called to court to attest to his character all I could have said would have been based on what I knew of him, which was entirely satisfactory. I was certainly in no position to judge whether, or not, he was guilty of the charges, that was the task of the jury.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am in no way defending Karim, but can understand how he could have presented himself as pleasant, amiable and good at his job to parents of children at his school or fellow members of the Queen's Club.

David

I met Karim for the one and only time at a Mid A House Reunion about 5 or 6 years ago. He came across just as you suggest but, and this is not me being wise after the event, there was something about him that made me wary but I attributed that to my natural caution and reserve rather than anything sinister on his behalf.

[jhopgood]

Exactly.

Class really is an British obsession, and a pretentious one at that. On the Continent it really is a case of 'it's not where you're from, it's where you're at'. You could be born dirt poor, get a decent education and have a 'white collar' job and be counted as one of the middling classes, on paper. In this country, it's different and has become even more odd. The term working class used to be socio-economic, but now is more social than economic. In this country it seems to the reverse of what's true in the rest of Europe. You are what you were born as (or rather what your parents were), and that's that...

Not sure about where you’re at etc.
When I was in Amsterdam my Dutch colleague said it was all based on his contacts from his University Class.
In Buenos Aires it was based on your school, St Georges or St Andrews, which then led on to your Rugby Club. For those who didn’t go to one of those schools, again it was based on University Class.
Someone has suggested to me that what we are is a result of our genetic makeup and social environment. Can’t change one but can the other.
Shades of CH?

[sejintenej]

Exactly.

Class really is an British obsession, and a pretentious one at that. On the Continent it really is a case of 'it's not where you're from, it's where you're at'. You could be born dirt poor, get a decent education and have a 'white collar' job and be counted as one of the middling classes, on paper. In this country, it's different and has become even more odd. The term working class used to be socio-economic, but now is more social than economic. In this country it seems to the reverse of what's true in the rest of Europe. You are what you were born as (or rather what your parents were), and that's that...

Not sure about where you’re at etc.
When I was in Amsterdam my Dutch colleague said it was all based on his contacts from his University Class.
In Buenos Aires it was based on your school, St Georges or St Andrews, which then led on to your Rugby Club. For those who didn’t go to one of those schools, again it was based on University Class.
Someone has suggested to me that what we are is a result of our genetic makeup and social environment. Can’t change one but can the other.
Shades of CH?

Belfast it is partly what school you went to; the divide still exists. On the side I know it is effetively money / where you live etc.
In Brazil I found acceptance was based on education though the subject itself created a series of levels. For example my top boss was a medical doctor qualified in the USA; that put him well above a friend with a degree in education. It was confusing; in one meeting a decent UK education went better than a degree from Harvard because it was based on that each could supply

[J.R.]

Well !!!!

COVID19 really does show just how ridiculous the British class system is.
Viruses don't differentiate between classes.

[loringa]

Well !!!!

COVID19 really does show just how ridiculous the British class system is.
Viruses don't differentiate between classes.

Indeed they do not as both Prince Charles and Mr Johnson can testify. Nonetheless, wealth, if not class precisely, does. Large families, crammed into overcrowded accommodation living cheek by jowl with large numbers of other people, unable to distance themselves and together often 24 hours a day, are bound to be more susceptible to the Coronavirus. Add to this the usual health effects of poverty even in good times and you have a ticking time bomb.

[rockfreak]

You mention pastoral care. What's wrong with your own pastoral care? Are you and your wife unable to bring up your children? Or perhaps just lazy? Why send them to strangers to do the job?

Does it matter...?

Yes it does. What an astonishing comment. Can I suggest that in no other country in developed Europe would there be such a casual acceptance of sending your kids away unless you really had to (peripatetic parents for instance). Especially in the mediterranean countries where family ties are rather stronger. Nor do I buy the current get-out being touted by impudent private school headmasters and the Independent Schools Council that lots of parents are unfit to raise their children and therefore have to have them taken away to be raised. What cheek.
What happens in these cases. You take a child at an impressionable age away from the tactile, unconditional love of the family which should be every child's birthright and plunge them into an institution where love must by definition be absent. What is substituted is a kind of support along the lines of "Come on old, chap, buck up, you'll get used to it." Well, in the end they do get used to it because they have to. But because love is absent many will convince themselves that they don't need it. And conversely they themselves may get out of the habit of loving. No parents, siblings, pets - but perhaps this will only manifest itself in later life.
As for the parents, isn't it good to have the difficult task of bringing up children? It makes you more tolerant and patient and more rounded as a person, and indeed your children see you at your best and worst and this brings home to them just what is involved in family life. I don't buy the fashionable idea of "quality time" during holidays. It's quantity time and it may involve up moments, down moments, boredom and crises. But it's all part of family life. Boarding schools will always lag behind families in providing pastoral care, on minder to children ratio apart from anything else. We had three and even then there were times when it was like an episode of 'Outnumbered'.
CH propagandists make much of the "coming from difficult homes" ethos. But how many come from really difficult homes. Could I suggest that in
the vast majority of cases there is still a loving parent or parents who can do a perfectly adequate job? Isn't this why the social services try hard these days to find a troubled child a foster parent rather than opting for an institution.

[Pe.A]

You mention pastoral care. What's wrong with your own pastoral care? Are you and your wife unable to bring up your children? Or perhaps just lazy? Why send them to strangers to do the job?

Does it matter...?

Yes it does. What an astonishing comment. Can I suggest that in no other country in developed Europe would there be such a casual acceptance of sending your kids away unless you really had to (peripatetic parents for instance). Especially in the mediterranean countries where family ties are rather stronger. Nor do I buy the current get-out being touted by impudent private school headmasters and the Independent Schools Council that lots of parents are unfit to raise their children and therefore have to have them taken away to be raised. What cheek.
What happens in these cases. You take a child at an impressionable age away from the tactile, unconditional love of the family which should be every child's birthright and plunge them into an institution where love must by definition be absent. What is substituted is a kind of support along the lines of "Come on old, chap, buck up, you'll get used to it." Well, in the end they do get used to it because they have to. But because love is absent many will convince themselves that they don't need it. And conversely they themselves may get out of the habit of loving. No parents, siblings, pets - but perhaps this will only manifest itself in later life.
As for the parents, isn't it good to have the difficult task of bringing up children? It makes you more tolerant and patient and more rounded as a person, and indeed your children see you at your best and worst and this brings home to them just what is involved in family life. I don't buy the fashionable idea of "quality time" during holidays. It's quantity time and it may involve up moments, down moments, boredom and crises. But it's all part of family life. Boarding schools will always lag behind families in providing pastoral care, on minder to children ratio apart from anything else. We had three and even then there were times when it was like an episode of 'Outnumbered'.
CH propagandists make much of the "coming from difficult homes" ethos. But how many come from really difficult homes. Could I suggest that in
the vast majority of cases there is still a loving parent or parents who can do a perfectly adequate job? Isn't this why the social services try hard these days to find a troubled child a foster parent rather than opting for an institution.

First all all - b*llocks! You seem to deal in such badly informed stereotypes and a really snide, haughty snobbery with this topic.

What makes you think family ties are so much stronger in Southern European countries, anyhow...? Do you think all families are like the Corleones...?

With regards to comparisons with Europe I like to think I have a slightly different angle from which to view things since my mother was Spanish and my father Italian. Although my mother and her family left school at 11, one of my uncles was sent to board with (Jesuit?) monks in the 60s which was the only way to educate academically gifted children from rural areas back then. Similar to a few European countries, where boarding schools are not uncommon. In France, Macron plans to open up to 250 state funded boarding schools to educate children from inner cities and rural areas.

I think you overstate the case when you delve into the "You take a child at an impressionable age away from the tactile, unconditional love of the family which should be every child's birthright". I mean, do me a favour...

Where do you draw the line on this? I say this as a few of the children of family friends I knew in my teens used to be sent to holiday camps in Spain in the summer holidays, where shock horror, they would have been looked after by strangers. They always had such a laugh as well.

Similarly, as a good example you could also look at the world of youth football where young players in their early/mid teens from far afield are housed in football clubs' training academies. Obviously, this is not something one would be generally familiar with in this country since English players don't tend to go abroad at any age. I always likened going to boarding school like going to University when you're 11.

I'll leave it at that (for the time being)...

[loringa]

First all all - b*llocks! You seem to deal in such badly informed stereotypes and a really snide, haughty snobbery with this topic.

What makes you think family ties are so much stronger in Southern European countries, anyhow...? Do you think all families are like the Corleones...?

With regards to comparisons with Europe I like to think I have a slightly different angle from which to view things since my mother was Spanish and my father Italian. Although my mother and her family left school at 11, one of my uncles was sent to board with (Jesuit?) monks in the 60s which was the only way to educate academically gifted children from rural areas back then. Similar to a few European countries, where boarding schools are not uncommon. In France, Macron plans to open up to 250 state funded boarding schools to educate children from inner cities and rural areas.

I think you overstate the case when you delve into the "You take a child at an impressionable age away from the tactile, unconditional love of the family which should be every child's birthright". I mean, do me a favour...

Where do you draw the line on this? I say this as a few of the children of family friends I knew in my teens used to be sent to holiday camps in Spain in the summer holidays, where shock horror, they would have been looked after by strangers. They always had such a laugh as well.

Similarly, as a good example you could also look at the world of youth football where young players in their early/mid teens from far afield are housed in football clubs' training academies. Obviously, this is not something one would be generally familiar with in this country since English players don't tend to go abroad at any age. I always likened going to boarding school like going to University when you're 11.

I'll leave it at that (for the time being)...

That's told him, not that he'll be listening.

As I've mentioned before it is quite clear that Mr Redshaw is one of the 'true believers'. As such there is nothing you can say to him to convince him that he may not, in fact, be entirely correct about everything. He knows he did the right thing educating his children; he knows that independent schools are morally reprehensible; he knows parents who send their children to boarding schools are lazy and distant, and do it largely so that they can pass the responsibility to someone else.

It's the same as he knows that Jeremy Corbyn would have been a good Prime Minister with sensibly thought-out and fully funded policies if only the ignorant masses could just see what's good for them. He hasn't said it for a while but at the height of the anti-Semitism scandal in the Labour Party he was posting about a Jewish lobby in this country which, when challenged, he was quite prepared to defend. What next - Covid-19 is the result of of biological warfare experiments that went wrong - American experiments obviously?

Bottom line - his nonsense needs to be refuted but nothing anyone says is going to change his mind. These are articles of faith!

[J.R.]

Freedom of Speech, and all that !!