Elizabeth Cairncross

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Pe.A
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Pe.A »

AMP wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:07 pm
eucsgmrc wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:02 am
AMP wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:31 am The school hadn't been modernised since the victorian era and the food was mostly inedible.
Not true.

The school was brand new, very modern and equipped to a high standard when it came into use in 1902. It was by no means a typical Victorian institution.

That said, the 1902 kitchens were still in use in 1954, and the food they turned out was far from appetising. Nobody could call it ample either, but it was well above starvation level and nobody was malnourished.

In 1955 (I think) the kitchens were comprehensively refitted, and the food began to improve. By the time I left in 1962, it was tolerably good, for institutional food. There were several items on the menu that we positively looked forward to (but the army food we got at CCF camps was better).

From what I'm reading here, it seems that food was one of several things that got worse in the 70s. I had no idea. How would I? But I now feel uncomfortable (to say the least) that I assumed everything about CH would be as good as, or better than, what I experienced.
I was mainly thinking about the accomodation, but thank you for correcting me. And of course, there was the Arts Centre, the Octagon and the Modern Languages lab, to name but some.

I should have said the food was mostly dreadful, not inedible, otherwise I wouldn't be here to criticise it 40 years later. And touch wood, I still have a few miles left on the clock.

Some meals like beef stew were inedible.

Fry Ups were dreadful.
Overcooked sausages, fried bread which had obviously been deep fat fried. Bacon, mostly rind. Soggy white bread was disgusting.

Waffles/Hash Browns and beans was good. But not difficult.

Occasional pastry pie was bordering on the excellent.

But my overall rating has to be dreadful.


.
Would you say you're a fussy eater...?

As my grandfather used to say, 'when you're hungry everything tastes good'
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by AMP »

Pe.A wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:19 pm
AMP wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:07 pm
eucsgmrc wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:02 am

Not true.

The school was brand new, very modern and equipped to a high standard when it came into use in 1902. It was by no means a typical Victorian institution.

That said, the 1902 kitchens were still in use in 1954, and the food they turned out was far from appetising. Nobody could call it ample either, but it was well above starvation level and nobody was malnourished.

In 1955 (I think) the kitchens were comprehensively refitted, and the food began to improve. By the time I left in 1962, it was tolerably good, for institutional food. There were several items on the menu that we positively looked forward to (but the army food we got at CCF camps was better).

From what I'm reading here, it seems that food was one of several things that got worse in the 70s. I had no idea. How would I? But I now feel uncomfortable (to say the least) that I assumed everything about CH would be as good as, or better than, what I experienced.
I was mainly thinking about the accomodation, but thank you for correcting me. And of course, there was the Arts Centre, the Octagon and the Modern Languages lab, to name but some.

I should have said the food was mostly dreadful, not inedible, otherwise I wouldn't be here to criticise it 40 years later. And touch wood, I still have a few miles left on the clock.

Some meals like beef stew were inedible.

Fry Ups were dreadful.
Overcooked sausages, fried bread which had obviously been deep fat fried. Bacon, mostly rind. Soggy white bread was disgusting.

Waffles/Hash Browns and beans was good. But not difficult.

Occasional pastry pie was bordering on the excellent.

But my overall rating has to be dreadful.


.
Would you say you're a fussy eater...?
Not after CH, no!
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Pe.A »

AMP wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:59 pm
Pe.A wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:19 pm
AMP wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:07 pm
I was mainly thinking about the accomodation, but thank you for correcting me. And of course, there was the Arts Centre, the Octagon and the Modern Languages lab, to name but some.

I should have said the food was mostly dreadful, not inedible, otherwise I wouldn't be here to criticise it 40 years later. And touch wood, I still have a few miles left on the clock.

Some meals like beef stew were inedible.

Fry Ups were dreadful.
Overcooked sausages, fried bread which had obviously been deep fat fried. Bacon, mostly rind. Soggy white bread was disgusting.

Waffles/Hash Browns and beans was good. But not difficult.

Occasional pastry pie was bordering on the excellent.

But my overall rating has to be dreadful.


.
Would you say you're a fussy eater...?
Not after CH, no!
Ok.

I still have a major weak spot for things like Hash Browns and Angel Delight...
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by AMP »

A lot of what was allowed to go on and tolerated is hard to believe, particularly for the older generations who weren't there post merger.

But here is one such case, documented in the Daily Mail.

Old rituals, but taken to new extremes in the laissez faire period of the 80s and 90s when things had just got completely out of control.
School Pays [Pounds Sterling]2,500 to Boy Who Came Home with 40 Bruises

Daily Mail (London), June 9, 1999

Paul Sterrett arrived home covered in bruises just three weeks after enrolling at Christ’s Hospital School.

He told his parents he had been the victim of ‘dormitory punishments’ and that one boy had repeatedly kicked him while whistling the theme tune of Match of the Day.
Paul’s father Ian and mother Sue complained to teachers at the 447-year-old school in Horsham, West Sussex. But, they say, despite assurances that the bullying would be stamped out, Paul was attacked twice more when he returned.

The parents, who live in Crawley, West Sussex, then withdrew him from the school completely.

Solicitors for the family threatened to sue Christ’s Hospital for negligence and breach of a duty of care towards Paul.

The school denied liability but agreed to pay [pounds sterling]2,500 in an out-of-court settlement which was approved at Horsham county court last week.

Yesterday, Mr Sterrett, 41, a British Airways customer services representative, recalled his son arriving home after his first weeks at the school.

“My wife screamed when she saw what he looked like,” he said.

“Paul had about 40 bruises all over his body and it was obvious there had been some pretty systematic bullying in his dormitory.“

“He told us there were various punishments, one of which was called “milking”, where younger boys had their nipples squeezed extremely hard until it caused bruising.”

Mrs Sterrett, 43, said that Paul, who is now 12, was the youngest in the school when he enrolled at Christ’s Hospital in September 1997 – a year early because he was considered very bright, particularly in mathematics.

“When we complained, the headmaster said we should take a couple of steps backward and let them get on with it – they had been looking after boys for hundreds of years and had a lot of experience.“
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Pe.A »

AMP wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:36 am A lot of what was allowed to go on and tolerated is hard to believe, particularly for the older generations who weren't there post merger.

But here is one such case, documented in the Daily Mail.

Old rituals, but taken to new extremes in the laissez faire period of the 80s and 90s when things had just got completely out of control.
School Pays [Pounds Sterling]2,500 to Boy Who Came Home with 40 Bruises

Daily Mail (London), June 9, 1999

Paul Sterrett arrived home covered in bruises just three weeks after enrolling at Christ’s Hospital School.

He told his parents he had been the victim of ‘dormitory punishments’ and that one boy had repeatedly kicked him while whistling the theme tune of Match of the Day.
Paul’s father Ian and mother Sue complained to teachers at the 447-year-old school in Horsham, West Sussex. But, they say, despite assurances that the bullying would be stamped out, Paul was attacked twice more when he returned.

The parents, who live in Crawley, West Sussex, then withdrew him from the school completely.

Solicitors for the family threatened to sue Christ’s Hospital for negligence and breach of a duty of care towards Paul.

The school denied liability but agreed to pay [pounds sterling]2,500 in an out-of-court settlement which was approved at Horsham county court last week.

Yesterday, Mr Sterrett, 41, a British Airways customer services representative, recalled his son arriving home after his first weeks at the school.

“My wife screamed when she saw what he looked like,” he said.

“Paul had about 40 bruises all over his body and it was obvious there had been some pretty systematic bullying in his dormitory.“

“He told us there were various punishments, one of which was called “milking”, where younger boys had their nipples squeezed extremely hard until it caused bruising.”

Mrs Sterrett, 43, said that Paul, who is now 12, was the youngest in the school when he enrolled at Christ’s Hospital in September 1997 – a year early because he was considered very bright, particularly in mathematics.

“When we complained, the headmaster said we should take a couple of steps backward and let them get on with it – they had been looking after boys for hundreds of years and had a lot of experience.“
I think I vaguely remember that story when I was at CH. Not much about the fine details that the Mail goes into, but definitely rings a bell.

How did you manage to track that article down?

I don't think you can use that example to claim that it goes to show things were 'out of control' at the school in the 90s.

My primary school playground could be a horrible place at times - although the headmaster had a curious rule that he allowed the victim to do what the perpetrator had done to him. I once was allowed to take a free hit at someone. It was quite satisfying...
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by loringa »

AMP wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:36 am A lot of what was allowed to go on and tolerated is hard to believe, particularly for the older generations who weren't there post merger.

But here is one such case, documented in the Daily Mail.

Old rituals, but taken to new extremes in the laissez faire period of the 80s and 90s when things had just got completely out of control.
School Pays [Pounds Sterling]2,500 to Boy Who Came Home with 40 Bruises

Daily Mail (London), June 9, 1999

Paul Sterrett arrived home covered in bruises just three weeks after enrolling at Christ’s Hospital School.

He told his parents he had been the victim of ‘dormitory punishments’ and that one boy had repeatedly kicked him while whistling the theme tune of Match of the Day.
Paul’s father Ian and mother Sue complained to teachers at the 447-year-old school in Horsham, West Sussex. But, they say, despite assurances that the bullying would be stamped out, Paul was attacked twice more when he returned.

The parents, who live in Crawley, West Sussex, then withdrew him from the school completely.

Solicitors for the family threatened to sue Christ’s Hospital for negligence and breach of a duty of care towards Paul.

The school denied liability but agreed to pay [pounds sterling]2,500 in an out-of-court settlement which was approved at Horsham county court last week.

Yesterday, Mr Sterrett, 41, a British Airways customer services representative, recalled his son arriving home after his first weeks at the school.

“My wife screamed when she saw what he looked like,” he said.

“Paul had about 40 bruises all over his body and it was obvious there had been some pretty systematic bullying in his dormitory.“

“He told us there were various punishments, one of which was called “milking”, where younger boys had their nipples squeezed extremely hard until it caused bruising.”

Mrs Sterrett, 43, said that Paul, who is now 12, was the youngest in the school when he enrolled at Christ’s Hospital in September 1997 – a year early because he was considered very bright, particularly in mathematics.

“When we complained, the headmaster said we should take a couple of steps backward and let them get on with it – they had been looking after boys for hundreds of years and had a lot of experience.“
Whilst I agree with Pe.A that one event such as this does not, in and of itself, indicate that things were 'out of control' in the 1990s, my general impression of reading other posts is that bullying and abuse were worse in the 1990s than in earlier decades. I remember feeling pleased as a pupil that I was at school during what seemed like the relatively enlightened 1970s. Things like this generally seem to have got better over the years since, both at Christ's Hospital and elsewhere, all so I wonder what made for the seemingly backward steps of the 1990s.

It is also noticeable that the abusers amongst the teaching staff in the 1970s (Burr, Webb and Martin in particular) seem to have been lone wolves, whereas in later years, events like Dobbie's perverted dinner parties, seem to have been, if not corporately accepted, at least known about.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by AMP »

Spot on loringa.
I assumed it would be read in context not isolation.That is after all the purpose of a thread.
My objective was to provide evidence, as quite understandably a number of OBs have expressed some scepticism. Not only about what was happening, but more incredibly, what was allowed to happen with indifference.
The general drop in standards of acceptable behaviour, even by the standards of CH, was abnormal and had become normalised and institutional.
Of course, many pupils had a normal seven years depending upon what houses they were in, who their teachers were and how vulnerable they were.
But nobody, I repeat nobody, was protected.

Ps Thank you to whoever kindly formatted my original post.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by jtaylor »

I can assure from bitter experience that bullying and prejudice were alive and well in the 80s and early 90s.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by scrub »

Pe.A wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:01 amI don't think you can use that example to claim that it goes to show things were 'out of control' at the school in the 90s.
That story was a couple of years after I left and was the first I'd heard of it (I'd left the country well before it was published), and you're right in that one story alone can't be used to support a claim that the place was out of control.
That said, reading it I got some fairly unpleasant flash backs and thought "sounds like every other day for a huge chunk of my first year at CH, and I know I got off lightly". I have no idea what the threshold is for out of control, but if I regard the details of that story as normal/usual for my time there, that's probably not a positive endorsement.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by AMP »

Add to that the almost complete isolation and you have a perfect hunting ground for bullies and paedophiles, facilitated by teachers who either didn't care or for some reason were completely unaware.
No mobile phones, no internet, no privacy and limited opportunities and time during the day to queue up for a pay phone, if you had some 10 pence pieces.
At Hertford, the isolation was even worse.
All contact with parents forbidden for the first month and thereafter only letter writing encouraged. Two pay phones between 300 girls.
I remember one homesick boy actually ran home. Luckily for him he lived in Tower Hill.
Many sexual abuse victims were initially bullied and then comforted and exploited by their abuser. Some abusers even orchestrated the bullying by manipulating other pupils.
So if ever there was a need for adequate safeguarding, it was then, even more than now.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by sejintenej »

scrub wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:39 pm I know I got off lightly". I have no idea what the threshold is for out of control, but if I regard the details of that story as normal/usual for my time there, that's probably not a positive endorsement.
I also got off relatively lucky; just the one stay in the sicker to recover from the injuries and nothing was done about it. The responsible person (several were involved) subsequently was big in education
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by AMP »

Facilitators and Corruption.

I have been doing my annual Anti Corruption Awareness refresher.

There are severe penalties for both the employer and employee.

Corruption can be active (briber) and passive (corrupt)

An example of passive would be failing to declare a conflict of interest during a tendering process.

"If you suspect unethical behaviour, speak up!"

So why can't the law on passive sexual abuse be tightened up?

Does such a law even exist?

And before anyone says it's almost impossible to prove facilitation, I would counter by saying the same applies to being given brown envelopes, but there is still a provision in law for that sort of thing.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by Otter »

Active vs passive offences (actions vs omitting to act when you have a duty to do so)

I am not a legal expert, merely worked on the fringes of the justice system and here's my take on it (happy to be corrected, and looking forward to learning more from others more in the know, as I am also confused and angry why there is seemingly no action being taken against P-S-C after their admissions in court).

Omissions are not as strongly prosecutable in England and Wales as in many other jurisdictions. E.g. we don't have a "non-assistance to persons in danger" law, which is common across Europe. In England and Wales, if you walk past a person who is drowning and do nothing, you aren't guilty of anything - unless you have a duty of care to that person (e.g. you're their guardian, teacher, etc.). Otherwise, you have no legal obligation and will not be punished by leaving them to die. In many other places, this is not the case, and doing nothing where there is an obvious danger to someone's life can get you jail time. Fear of being sued/prosecuted if you do the wrong thing and make it worse, is often alleviated by there being immunity as long as you do your best efforts to help the person in danger.

I remember also learning about omissions leading to death/injury when you have a duty of care. There was some very old case about a railway signalman who fell asleep and failed to adjust a signal, resulting in a head-on train crash. The fact that he did nothing made him guilty of manslaughter. Doctors also have responsibilities like this and can be prosecuted if they do nothing for a patient when they clearly should have known to do something to help them.

I thought a teacher or other school staff was also one of those cases where you have a legal duty of care and can be held liable if you fail to act? So I don't understand how they can't be prosecuted for deliberately doing nothing when faced with numerous sexual abuse complaints (or in Sillett's case, threatening that they would (illegally) be named in the media).

If there really isn't a legal possibility to prosecute school staff who ignore complaints of abuse, there should be! One for the Number 10 petitions website maybe?
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by AMP »

Interesting insights from Otter and I too hope the legal eagles will be able to provide their input.
Like quarantine, how do you police it?
Doesn't mean you don't try.
In Canada it is an offence to drive past another vehicle which is parked by the side of the road in a remote area.
This is because of the cold temperatures and in case the vehicle has broken down.
I have experienced such good will in late summer when I was parked up consulting a map in Nova Scotia.
Returning to CH, there were others who turned a blind eye and in the case of Husband just didn't get it.
One person to their credit gave truthful evidence at the Karim trial and admitted they could have done more.
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Re: Elizabeth Cairncross

Post by sejintenej »

Otter wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:17 am Active vs passive offences (actions vs omitting to act when you have a duty to do so)

I am not a legal expert, merely worked on the fringes of the justice system and here's my take on it (happy to be corrected, and looking forward to learning more from others more in the know, as I am also confused and angry why there is seemingly no action being taken against P-S-C after their admissions in court).

Omissions are not as strongly prosecutable in England and Wales as in many other jurisdictions. E.g. we don't have a "non-assistance to persons in danger" law, which is common across Europe. In England and Wales, if you walk past a person who is drowning and do nothing, you aren't guilty of anything
There were a couple of cases where police officers watched people drown because they had not had appropriate training. AFAIR in one case the officer possibly could have saved the victim in the specific circumstances but was not allowed to My understanding is that if they had tried to act then they would have been subject to disciplinary proceedings even if they had been successful.You are right about the law in some (?all Continental ) countries In France you see the accident and you MUST stop and help- and you have legal protection
.....unless you have a duty of care to that person (e.g. you're their guardian, teacher, etc.). Otherwise, you have no legal obligation and will not be punished by leaving them to die. In many other places, this is not the case, and doing nothing where there is an obvious danger to someone's life can get you jail time. Fear of being sued/prosecuted if you do the wrong thing and make it worse, is often alleviated by there being immunity as long as you do your best efforts to help the person in danger.
Not quite You still have to go through two or three years of agony after being charged, you have to employ lawyers at your expense
Yes, you will U S U A L L Y get off but it has cost thousands of non-refunded pounds and months of worry
If you watch motor racing for 15 + years I was one of those people in orange fireproofs who went out when a driver crashed We were warned that an injured driver could prosecute you as a result of your actions or inactions and the organisers would not help you It was dangerous and we had no legal protection and minimal insurance even against death At least we got top quality training and medical help on the track though too many marshalls were killed
there really isn't a legal possibility to prosecute school staff who ignore complaints of abuse, there should be! One for the Number 10 petitions website maybe?
The politicians THINK they have more important things to think about
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