Roger Martin

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Re: Roger Martin

Post by harryh » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:45 pm


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Re: Roger Martin

Post by marty » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:54 pm

J.R. wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:02 pm
Is there any possibility the accused failed to attend Crown Court yesterday ?
The lawpages state that the hearing finished at 12.42 with nothing untoward of that nature reported.

I guess someone could try asking Eloise Marshall QC's clerk if she is prosecuting this one as well, and if so what yesterday's outcome was...
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by marty » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:58 pm

Scrub my previous. This tells you what happened:

Roger Martin, a former teacher at the School, appeared today at Lewes Crown Court. Mr Martin entered
a not guilty plea and was released on unconditional bail until his trial date on 11th March 2019 when he
will appear at Lewes Crown Court.

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/chr ... 202018.pdf
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by graham » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:11 pm

I sincerely hope that the school does attempt to make reparations to the victims of abuse, but the school must also realize that every pupil to have passed through the Cloisters during the past ~50 years is a victim of false promises and gross negligence. The realization that the school failed to act to protect the victims of rape, assault and abuse in multiple instances over many decades brings into question every positive experience some of us have of the place. To suddenly be confronted with the reality that those in charge of your wellbeing from the ages of 11 to 18 failed to properly protect you and ~800 of your fellow pupils, shakes one to the core. The SMT allowed sexual predators to remain in place for the good of the school or because they had otherwise been a success story. I'm sure many of us now wonder how many other teachers were abusing pupils: Was our favorite teacher one? Was that one awkward interaction an attempt at abuse? As a former pupil Howard, you're a victim of this too. But as a member of staff also, some of us (unfortunately) can't help but lump you in the "them" category. It's not that we blame you. The school put you in this position.

The damage is profound but sincere words from the top would help. I think this is what many feel is lacking. The growing sense of hostility towards Poulton, Cairncross and Sillet is a prime example. As the management team in place during my years there, I certainly want answers as to why they put the school's reputation above the safety of the pupils in their care, but a statement of condemnation from the current management team would suffice. The statements that the school have released may have been scripted according to careful legal advice, but at some point they have to address the multiple failings made over the years and apologize to ALL former pupils and some kind of acknowledgement of that duty would be nice right now. We are charged to carry the good name of Christs's Hospital with us, but as of right now I'm fairly ashamed of it. The school has to do more to heal these deep wounds.
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by richardb » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:19 pm

I probably have a better developed sense of social justice than you Howard, having seen at close quarters the devastation that it causes. I apologise if I assume to much and you don't feel any sense of regret that opportunities to stop the offenders may have been lost.

I am afraid that I can't get excited about A level results. The school has long since lost its shine for me. It is however a good diversion from the bad publicity.
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by richardb » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:31 pm

graham wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:11 pm
I sincerely hope that the school does attempt to make reparations to the victims of abuse, but the school must also realize that every pupil to have passed through the Cloisters during the past ~50 years is a victim of false promises and gross negligence. The realization that the school failed to act to protect the victims of rape, assault and abuse in multiple instances over many decades brings into question every positive experience some of us have of the place. To suddenly be confronted with the reality that those in charge of your wellbeing from the ages of 11 to 18 failed to properly protect you and ~800 of your fellow pupils, shakes one to the core. The SMT allowed sexual predators to remain in place for the good of the school or because they had otherwise been a success story. I'm sure many of us now wonder how many other teachers were abusing pupils: Was our favorite teacher one? Was that one awkward interaction an attempt at abuse? As a former pupil Howard, you're a victim of this too. But as a member of staff also, some of us (unfortunately) can't help but lump you in the "them" category. It's not that we blame you. The school put you in this position.

The damage is profound but sincere words from the top would help. I think this is what many feel is lacking. The growing sense of hostility towards Poulton, Cairncross and Sillet is a prime example. As the management team in place during my years there, I certainly want answers as to why they put the school's reputation above the safety of the pupils in their care, but a statement of condemnation from the current management team would suffice. The statements that the school have released may have been scripted according to careful legal advice, but at some point they have to address the multiple failings made over the years and apologize to ALL former pupils and some kind of acknowledgement of that duty would be nice right now. We are charged to carry the good name of Christs's Hospital with us, but as of right now I'm fairly ashamed of it. The school has to do more to heal these deep wounds.
It may help if the school actually say how many people are affected by this. They will have the figures but it is way beyond the 20+ who have made statements for the criminal proceedings. Once this figure is publicly known then people will begin to understand fully what has gone on.

Until the school shows us some honesty (such as the number of victims), it will not get the support of those who were there in the year gone by.

I am afraid I can't get enthusiastic about the present day.

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Re: Roger Martin

Post by J.R. » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:27 pm

marty wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:58 pm
Scrub my previous. This tells you what happened:

Roger Martin, a former teacher at the School, appeared today at Lewes Crown Court. Mr Martin entered
a not guilty plea and was released on unconditional bail until his trial date on 11th March 2019 when he
will appear at Lewes Crown Court.

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/chr ... 202018.pdf
Seems rather a long way off to me. Possible connections to other 'on-going' investigations, I ask myself ?

Still, even IF he is later found guilty, he'll get at least one more decent Christmas dinner.
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by jtaylor » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:28 pm

Does seem to be a massive delay?? As you say, maybe this hints at other investigations ongoing, directly related or otherwise....
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by Foureyes » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm

Richard,
You wrote: "It may help if the school actually say how many people are affected by this. They will have the figures but it is way beyond the 20+ who have made statements for the criminal proceedings. Once this figure is publicly known then people will begin to understand fully what has gone on."

I used to be proud to tell people that I am an Old Blue - now I keep very quiet about it. Also, it seems that at the time I was at C.H. (1948-55), either there was none of this master-pupil activity going on, or, if there was, it was kept very, very quiet. That said, I suggest that the present management of the school and the foundation are between a rock and a hard place and slanging them off, particularly Reid, will not really help matters.

First, how can they know how many were abused? Let us say that the period involved is 1950-2010 and the throughput was 100 per year. That gives a cohort of 50 times 100 equals 5,000 (less those that have died, of course). How could they (or the police) locate and question all of those? If it is left to effected Old Blues to come forward, will these all identify themselves simultaneously? Some may not wish to embarrass their families, some may regard it as simply 'water-under-the-bridge' (i.e., something which happened, but it was a long time ago); some may wish to keep quiet until they see which way the wind is blowing; in some cases the Old Blue may know that the perpetrator is dead. Finally, some may not have heard of the situation and not come forward initially and then decide to do so. In other words, the school/police will never know the full figure until the last one has died in about 2100.

It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that a (hopefully) very small number of complainants may not be telling the truth - as (allegedly) was 'Nick' in his charges against Bramall, Heath, et al. In the interests of justice such people need to be identified, their stories refuted, and their allegations dismissed.

Thirdly, there is the matter of the staff members - not themselves abusers - who made public statements, which have subsequently been shown to have been at variance with the truth, if not downright lies, or who allowed the abusers to move on quietly to another school. You are much more knowledgeable about the law than I, but can the police or school actually do anything about that? As far as I can tell, they may have lied or acted unwisely, but did they actually break a law, and, if so, which one? Further, if they have moved on or retired does the school have any legal hold over them - could it compel them to return to Horsham and explain themselves to the current Head Master? I think not. Finally, if neither the police nor the school can take action against them, can Old Blues insist that they offer an explanation of their actions/inactions. We may demand that they do, but if they choose to stay quiet, then that is it as far as I can see.

I am not, for one moment, trying to excuse the perpetrators, and firmly believe that they should be identified and punished. But I do believe that the school and/or police need to be given a little space and that bad mouthing them will achieve little.

David :shock:
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by Great Plum » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm

Isn’t 6 months or so fairly average for this?
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by J.R. » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:44 pm

Great Plum wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm
Isn’t 6 months or so fairly average for this?
Over to Richard again !
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by Great Plum » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:49 pm

J.R. wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:44 pm
Great Plum wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm
Isn’t 6 months or so fairly average for this?
Over to Richard again !
I was just thinking of the other recent cases and their time between court appearances...
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by graham » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:51 pm

Foureyes wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm
I am not, for one moment, trying to excuse the perpetrators, and firmly believe that they should be identified and punished. But I do believe that the school and/or police need to be given a little space and that bad mouthing them will achieve little.

David :shock:
I agree that singling out the current head is not appropriate, particularly given that he will be trying to carefully balance the fact that investigations are ongoing with respect for the privacy of victims and the need to maintain an atmosphere of impartiality for future trials. And I'm not sure that providing us with numbers is that helpful, particularly given that more are likely to come forward (the investigation is ongoing and the net is broadening), but also as many more victims will not speak or will have since died.

With that said, the fact that the school, as a whole, has not acknowledged the breadth of misdeeds committed by those in charge at the time and the danger this placed all students in seems ripe for criticism.
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Re: Roger Martin

Post by richardb » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:54 pm

Foureyes wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm
Richard,
You wrote: "It may help if the school actually say how many people are affected by this. They will have the figures but it is way beyond the 20+ who have made statements for the criminal proceedings. Once this figure is publicly known then people will begin to understand fully what has gone on."

I used to be proud to tell people that I am an Old Blue - now I keep very quiet about it. Also, it seems that at the time I was at C.H. (1948-55), either there was none of this master-pupil activity going on, or, if there was, it was kept very, very quiet. That said, I suggest that the present management of the school and the foundation are between a rock and a hard place and slanging them off, particularly Reid, will not really help matters.

First, how can they know how many were abused? Let us say that the period involved is 1950-2010 and the throughput was 100 per year. That gives a cohort of 50 times 100 equals 5,000 (less those that have died, of course). How could they (or the police) locate and question all of those? If it is left to effected Old Blues to come forward, will these all identify themselves simultaneously? Some may not wish to embarrass their families, some may regard it as simply 'water-under-the-bridge' (i.e., something which happened, but it was a long time ago); some may wish to keep quiet until they see which way the wind is blowing; in some cases the Old Blue may know that the perpetrator is dead. Finally, some may not have heard of the situation and not come forward initially and then decide to do so. In other words, the school/police will never know the full figure until the last one has died in about 2100.

It is also not beyond the bounds of possibility that a (hopefully) very small number of complainants may not be telling the truth - as (allegedly) was 'Nick' in his charges against Bramall, Heath, et al. In the interests of justice such people need to be identified, their stories refuted, and their allegations dismissed.

Thirdly, there is the matter of the staff members - not themselves abusers - who made public statements, which have subsequently been shown to have been at variance with the truth, if not downright lies, or who allowed the abusers to move on quietly to another school. You are much more knowledgeable about the law than I, but can the police or school actually do anything about that? As far as I can tell, they may have lied or acted unwisely, but did they actually break a law, and, if so, which one? Further, if they have moved on or retired does the school have any legal hold over them - could it compel them to return to Horsham and explain themselves to the current Head Master? I think not. Finally, if neither the police nor the school can take action against them, can Old Blues insist that they offer an explanation of their actions/inactions. We may demand that they do, but if they choose to stay quiet, then that is it as far as I can see.

I am not, for one moment, trying to excuse the perpetrators, and firmly believe that they should be identified and punished. But I do believe that the school and/or police need to be given a little space and that bad mouthing them will achieve little.

David :shock:
The school can give you a bottom line figure for the number of people who have come forward as victims.

Start from the premise that has appeared in almost every press release from Sussex Police that the school has completely co operated with the police investigation.

The school is should have been asked for all information that it holds on all complainants, whether the subject of charges or not. The number charged is around 24. Add to that those where criminal proceedings fell away because, for example, the perpetrator died or a decision was made not to proceed with criminal proceedings.

Even though not ultimately the subject of charges, the school will know how many victims have come forward.

The school ought also to have been back through records to see which staff left under the cloud of suspicion.

Add those who have come forward to those the school identify as having been abused by start who were moved on (such as Buck) and you get a bottom line figure.

My assessment is that there were at least 50 from World War 2 on.

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Re: Roger Martin

Post by richardb » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:58 pm

Great Plum wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm
Isn’t 6 months or so fairly average for this?
You are pretty much spot on Plum.

Since Operation Yewtree the through put of sex offences in the Crown Court is between 60 and 70% of the workload.

Cases with young witnesses are supposed to be tried within 8 weeks. Where the accused in in custody the case is supposed to be tried within 6 months of first remand.

That leaves cases where the Defendant is on bail where availability of court rooms may be limited. Sex offences also require a "ticketed judge", ie a judge who has been specially trained.

So seven months is by no means uncommon and you shouldn't read anything into it.
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