Here's a hypothetical

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sejintenej
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by sejintenej »

bakunin wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:39 am I'm stunned by the naivety and inability of former staff to comprehend the depth of the problem despite all the evidence of cover up and collusion, clearly documented in the media, including the lies and pressure to be quiet for the victims, the grooming "cycling shorts" parties which at least two other as yet uncharged teachers attended/hosted (cycling shorts is a clue to the identity of one of them), etc etc.
Whilst I canm understand your frustration and your suspicion about other adults it is a quetion of the CPS getting sufficient PROOF to have a good chance of getting a conviction. Heresay is not enough - solid evidence is required and of course the best evidence would be the words in court of the victims.

Staff may be completely aware of suspicions about the problem but there are other pressures on them including the liklihood of getting a good reference because they could not know how high the sickness permeates.
We have also had the unfortunate situation where a teacher for good reason (apparently) was forced to advise a pupil not to take action. We know only a fraction of the actual situations.
What happens if a politician drowns in a river? That is pollution.
What happens if all of them drown? That is solution!!!
harryh
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by harryh »

TMF wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:28 pm McCall accused pupils of cynicism.
And your point is?
Lenny
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Lenny »

Can I just say. My original post was written as an hypothetical.

Could we sue the school for giving us a substandard education? Due to it being compromised by paedophile grooming rings that tainted a number of us' experiences of the school. Could we claim back the fees our parents paid, due to incompetent management and a lack of pastoral care during the 80's / Early 90's?

I honestly believe there is a case.

I tried to write it in an objective fashion, but the more I thought about it, the more angry I became, and the more subjective (And sweary and repetitive) my thoughts became.

I know it's a little incoherent. But I'll address a couple of points.

OMeara.

When we were in Maine. He would come up into the dormitory, with an obvious erection in his trousers. And regale us with his story about "50 foot erections" - Even if we didn't want to hear it.

We didn't want to hear it. It became a (in hindsight a not really very funny) joke.

Not appropriate. Nobody, in that dormitory in Maine would deny that he did that. So anyone who believes he was "harmless" wasn't there. Not trying to be confrontational. I'm just saying what happened.

Crud McCall. I'm not surprised he's been mentioned. Him and Dobbie were thick as thieves. As I mentioned in my original post. On Saturday nights, a select group of people in Maine A would go up to his study to drink and smoke. He might have been an amazing maths teacher, or whatever you might believe. But as a housemaster, he was actively involved (With Gary Dobbie) in grooming young boys.

The rest of us just went out of the house to do the same. We often got busted. Despite the fact these 2 teachers would be at the very same time, plying the "favoured" with alcohol. The rest of us were bullied by the "chosen".

This happened. It was atrocious for those of us who were victims of it, and I'm not alone. It was devastating for those who were abused by these men, and that's why I'm writing this. I got off lightly.

There was an unspoken rule in Maine A. That you could drink whatever you liked. As soon as you threw up. Crud would come down on you like a ton of bricks.

Did my parents pay for this? Did they pay for a housemaster to select children to drink with him and supply them with alcohol, and allow others to drink as much as they liked, as long as they weren't sick?

I think not.

Bottom line is. Was this the correct level of pastoral care? Was this what my parents were paying for? Was this level of systemic dysfunction within the school part of the contract my parents signed, when they handed over their money?

I believe not.

I'm glad, that reading through the subsequent posts, after my (admitted) rant, that at least some of you can agree, that Christ's Hospital in the mid to late 80's was a compromised institution.

What I would like to see, is more people to PM me. I'm not alone in thinking this. I genuinely believe that Christ's Hospital have a case to answer for my compromised education and the compromised education of some of my peers.

I also believe, that there are those of you out there, that if you actually think about your time at CH, objectively, you will also see how compromised in terms of pastoral care that school actually was. You will probably realise, that the school was utterly dysfunctional by pretty much every standard of what you would ordinarily hold up as a school, and probably agree with most of what I'm saying. Even if it didn't directly affect you at the time.

I bet every one of you who were at the school at the time, know someone who it did negatively affect.

I don't want people on this forum to be at each other's throats. Some will not agree with me. That's fine. Some will have very different experiences to me, and different experiences of the teachers I talk about - Hell. At school I thought Dobbie was one of the good guys, even though my close friends and I always thought there was something "off" about him...

I'm just trying to share my experiences. I'm not carrying anything around. My life is very wholesome. I live a good life. I'm happy. I've made something of myself, DESPITE, Christ's Hospital.

And isn't that the real shame. It's not BECAUSE of Christ's Hospital. It's DESPITE Christ's Hospital.

Remember the foundation. My arse.
Last edited by Lenny on Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
richardb
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by richardb »

From a legal point of view, claims for breach of contract have to be brought within 6 years so it would be too late to make a claim.

I have read what you have posted with interest.
Lenny
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Lenny »

b****r :)
Pe.A
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Pe.A »

TMF wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:43 pm The school and its staff were aware of problems for decades. See, for example:
https://www.chforum.info/php/viewtopic. ... 44#p142644

...much of this site is devoted to analyzing who knew what and when about abuse and bullying (and there is much to read).

Refunding fees makes sense. The school has assets of 400 million.

https://www.christs-hospital.org.uk/inf ... s-2016-17/

...anticipate concern from teachers, retired teachers, and convicts fearing for the security of their pensions (and their shills).
How exactly would you work out who would get what?

And last point is unnecessarily cynical....
Pe.A
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Pe.A »

sejintenej wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:28 pm
TMF wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:43 pm
Refunding fees makes sense. The school has assets of 400 million.
I suspect that the Charity Commissioners would have a lot to say bout that such as "Close Down; you are in breach of your declared charitable purposes"

Those assets were garnered from sources on the condition that they are used for education purposes. It would be a differenmt matter if such a refund were on the instructions of the courts. In any case any refund would have to be to the original donor, not the ex pupil.
Doesnt a substantial amount come from land, rather than it accumulating in a giant piggybank, or buried under Sharpenhurst...??
Otter
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Otter »

Ashley, it could be a good idea telling Sussex Police about your recollections. Even if you didn’t personally witness anything illegal. You might have some information that no one else has told them, which could be useful to any ongoing investigations. If anecdotes on here are true, I don’t think it’s the end of it.

I was in Mid A with Dobbie as housemaster. I was oblivious to any abuse but having put the dates together, I now know that some of my peers were victims, without knowing who. It was a weird atmosphere that an adult could tell was amiss, but not a teenager who wasn’t a victim. I spent an hour talking with Sussex Police and they were really appreciative and professional. I was worried I was wasting their time as I didn’t have any direct information about offences, but they said every little memory helped to build a picture of what life was like as a pupil living with the offenders.
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marty
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by marty »

I entered Maine A in September 1992 by which time thankfully Dr Stuart was housemaster. Whilst it may be of little comfort to Ash, the behaviour he describes was, to the best of my knowledge, no longer occurring. Dr Stuart was a great housemaster - very laid back, funny and approachable. It now seems to me that replacing McCall with Dr Stuart was perhaps the one good thing Poulton did.
My therapist says I have a preoccupation with vengeance. We’ll see about that.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Otter »

I had Dr Stuart for English UF and GE. Absolute legend. One of the small group of teachers I consider really influential even though I stopped English after GCSE. Great teacher and even better human. Amazingly he only retired in 2016!

I haven’t thought about him for a while; always brings a smile to my face when I do.
Last edited by Otter on Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
harryh
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by harryh »

The Doc is still teaching!
Great man.
Otter
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Otter »

harryh wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:52 pm The Doc is still teaching!
Great man.
Ah oops, I found a reference in a Blue in 2016 mentioning his retirement. Amazing that he is still teaching and no doubt making a mark on people’s lives.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by J.R. »

Otter wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:54 pm
harryh wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:52 pm The Doc is still teaching!
Great man.
Ah oops, I found a reference in a Blue in 2016 mentioning his retirement. Amazing that he is still teaching and no doubt making a mark on people’s lives.
That is so nice to hear.

A true 'Mr. Chips'.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by Avon »

The house system in my time was an absolute lottery - but also a very dangerous one. This is I think one of the main proof points that shows that Poulton et al just weren't in control:

Maine was probably the best example at the time of a stern junior house experience (Grimshaw) that turned into a seriously anarchic senior house one (Crud). Peele probably the same (Maddren --> Can't Remember). By contrast Thornton (Hempstead --> Alexander) was probably t'other way around.

Middleton seemed to be quite stable at the time. Lamb was hard to fathom - for some reason it had a rather genteel - almost posh reputation.

Leigh Hunt was the oddity. Sillett was known to be tough but indiscriminate and also myopic, so there were some really bad bullying cases in LHB that I think Dennison was able to smooth out a bit in LHA. One of my mates was bust for smoking but it was based on smell, and turned out it was Sillett's cigars that he smoked in prep!

My point is that there should have been some sort of standard but in reality there was very little commonality between houses, from the facilities up. I spent most of my time on horsehair mattresses, in long dormitories with sheets and hairy blankets, envious of people who slept with duvets in bedroom studies. To this day (petty I know) that rankles. The more serious point here is that I think this is indicative of an unwillingness to apply a fair standard and governance in Houses. They were islands and the housemaster had real latitude: Sillett could be the bully, Crud and Dobbie could groom and/or abuse.

When there were good examples of house staff this was because of the integrity of the individual (Vikki and Tim come to mind), not because the office demanded anything over and above apparent teaching skill.

This is why I feel there is weight to the following lines of thinking on this site:
  • The Senior Management Team Failed. Capital F. Poulton, Sillett, Cairncross, Rae, Morrison, Hansford. Deduction: there must be an enquiry.
  • Many of the staff failed. A significant number of the staff would have seen enough evidence of injury, abuse or downright strangeness, OR (to my point above and as professional teachers) have recognised the conditions under which injury, abuse or downright strangeness flourishes. Deduction: CH in the given timeframe of this abuse, from, say the early 80s to the mid-90s should be regarded and recorded as a failed school and a dark epoch. It may be flowers and ambrosia now, in which case well done Reid, but then it wasn't.
  • Some of the staff are blameless. Either because they were spectacularly opaque or just had an other worldliness (Art School) or disengagement with anything other than teaching (I've always felt that the PolEcon department) fell into this category. Deduction: the binary view - AllStaffBad isn't true or helpful.
This is why the School's apparent silence on the matter won't cut it. Critical analysis of the school then must be encouraged, without prejudice to the school now. Frankly I'm not over-engaged with the school now; I'm not bound by the charge, and I've no inclination to return. But unless the school visibly engages with the past then I'm going to keep telling anyone who asks me about it or enquires about their children that it's toxic, hidebound and image obsessed, and unworthy of their children. I don't care if I'm wrong.
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Re: Here's a hypothetical

Post by TMF »

harryh wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:56 pm
TMF wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:28 pm McCall accused pupils of cynicism.
And your point is?
Accurate observation is called cynicism by those who do not accurately observe and instead prefer to obfuscate (like McCall).
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