Freaky in the FT

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sejintenej
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by sejintenej »

Avon wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 6:46 pm
sejintenej wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:30 pm Unfortunately that is what I was saying about that unmentionable German woman for a long time.
Alice Weidel or Frauke Petry?
Ed; I was being just a smidgen more serious; Angela Merkel Not having got on with the language despite 2 years work, was she trying to be Die or Das Furher?;

Serious question here; I put a space between the "be" and "Die" but the computer wrote "snakeman". I don't think I have ever used that word and don't remember reading it so how come Windows - Firefox inserted it?
I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians. (K Kindle)
Avon
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Avon »

I’m not one to generally pull people up on their spelling but it’s generally ‘Fuhrer’. The reason I do so on this occasion is that it suggests that you aren’t exactly boned up on things Germanic but sufficient to have a rather jaundiced view of Frau Merkel? I have a number of German friends who would profoundly disagree but would permit themselves a chortle that a little englander had the temerity to be critical of someone who had steered them through a very challenging period of their history without Fuhrer-like pretensions.

By contrast, in the UK and thanks to unthinking idiots happy to chuck stones at other statesmen and women but give incredible latitude to cretinous peasants like the vast majority of our incumbent government, we’re much closer to Pastor Niemoller’s reality here than in Germany.
sejintenej
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by sejintenej »

Ed. I got totally pissed off with the EU and those who ran it. The UK was always the lesser dog, with its ministers dumped in minority roles.

But than we got the excessive authoritarianism; for example several UK towns were fined for not flying the EU flag but where I lived in France there were numerous examples of EU funding where no EU flag was flown with impunity. In one example the EU paid for 10 miles of trees along roads. Under EU law every tree should have flown an EU flag but not a flag in sight - what a waste of money.

They even closed down border markings - I was going to the shops (twice) and on holiday (once) but due to no markings I even found myself (in fact in three separate areas and borders ) in a different country. (Those were France to Belgium to Germany and from France to Andorra and France to Spain).
I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians. (K Kindle)
time please
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by time please »

sejintenej wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:23 pm Ed. I got totally pissed off with the EU and those who ran it. The UK was always the lesser dog, with its ministers dumped in minority roles.

But than we got the excessive authoritarianism; for example several UK towns were fined for not flying the EU flag but where I lived in France there were numerous examples of EU funding where no EU flag was flown with impunity. In one example the EU paid for 10 miles of trees along roads. Under EU law every tree should have flown an EU flag but not a flag in sight - what a waste of money.

They even closed down border markings - I was going to the shops (twice) and on holiday (once) but due to no markings I even found myself (in fact in three separate areas and borders ) in a different country. (Those were France to Belgium to Germany and from France to Andorra and France to Spain).
"Don't say no" rather showing his true self: I want to be in the EU but I want everyone to know I am better than ( because I am a Brit ) anyone else in the EU.

Horror despair " they even closed down border markings " Errrr that was/is the point of the EU!?

Don't say no should be pleased that he is safely living on his little island .
Otter
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Otter »

sejintenej wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:30 pm Delighted to see that a Polish politician has at last admitted that Germany is trying to turn the EU into the Fourth Reich.
It's the Polish government that is trying to make its country more akin to a Reich, and the EU that is trying to prevent it.

The Polish government want a Hong Kong-style media ban on any outlets critical of it. They are doing it more carefully due to the importance of press freedom in this part of the world, but this is what they are aiming for.

The Polish government does everything it can to make life extremely difficult for anyone who is not traditionally Polish (whatever that means - in their view, white, straight and Christian).

The Polish government wants rid of any judges that rule against any of its decisions, and wants to hand-pick judges that fit its views and agenda.
loringa
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by loringa »

sejintenej wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:23 pm Ed. I got totally pissed off with the EU and those who ran it. The UK was always the lesser dog, with its ministers dumped in minority roles.
What, other than, for example, Catherine Ashton, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy? As one of the wealthier nations we were always going to be a net contributor to the EU (we still are in fact as we meet the obligations of our departure agreement). On the other hand, we were part of a highly influential economic grouping. We also remained outside the Schengen Area, enjoyed a generous rebate and maintained our veto over legislation we didn't support. As such we had a degree of collective economic muscle, significant foreign policy influence, enjoyed friendly relations with our neighbours and had the ability to influence decisions to the benefit of ourselves and others.

What exactly do we have now that is better? We are now of no more than marginal significance to most the world economically, forced to cut highly disadvantageous deals with places like Australia or with Japan where we are certainly no better off than we were as members of the EU. Most of the world see us as best as an irrelevance; at worse as an irritant. For the vast majority our decision to leave the EU remains incomprehensible; the EU was never going to allow it to be a success and we have gained nothing as far as I can see. As for the much-vaunted control over our borders we are actually worse off than before. In the past we enjoyed an influx or productive workers who drove our lorries, looked after our old and sick, picked our fruit and veg and generally did all the jobs Brits seem to see themselves either as too good to do, or for which they are manifestly unsuited. Nowadays all we seem to get are refugees and illegal immigrants from a France who is more than happy to see the back of them. As for fishing rights - best probably not to go there!

The Prime Minister, arch architect of Brexit, makes much of us being 'global Britain' but, apart perhaps from militarily, we simply now matter far less than we did before we left the EU. Almost nothing is better; much is worse and the sunlit uplands seem ever further away!

No apologies for the rant by the way - leaving the EU is up there with invading Iraq as one of the really, really bad (and, quite frankly, stupid) decisions my country has made during my lifetime. I remain furious at what a bunch of xenophobes and little Englanders have forced on us.

Happy 2022!
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Pe.A »

Otter wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:30 am
sejintenej wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 4:30 pm Delighted to see that a Polish politician has at last admitted that Germany is trying to turn the EU into the Fourth Reich.
It's the Polish government that is trying to make its country more akin to a Reich, and the EU that is trying to prevent it.
Astute observation.
Otter
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Otter »

loringa wrote: Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:39 pm
sejintenej wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:23 pm Ed. I got totally pissed off with the EU and those who ran it. The UK was always the lesser dog, with its ministers dumped in minority roles.
What, other than, for example, Catherine Ashton, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy?
I've just checked the list of all the UK Commissioners from 1973 to 2021.

Other senior roles like Ashton's include eight Vice-Presidents, one President, and two Commissioners for External Relations (basically the Foreign Secretary).

Covid is making for an extraordinarily convenient smokescreen for the various problems that we are facing, especially the difficulties in healthcare, haulage, food supply and foreign travel. The overwhelming contributor to most of these problems is not Covid, it is Brexit. If one were to be very cynical, one could argue that the reason why our Covid restrictions are so relaxed compared to the rest of Europe is to make it look like Covid is cause of the nation's problems beyond the pandemic, to mask the far bigger cause, which is Brexit.

Sounding like a broken record but it would be really nice to hear a genuine, tangible reason that truly affects our lives, that is better as a result of Brexit. Not flags, passport colours or abstract sovereignty (we were never in Schengen, so always controlled our borders and refused entry to thousands of undesirable EU citizens each year), but actual advantages that make us wealthier, safer, more efficient, etc.
Katharine
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Katharine »

Otter wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:45 am Covid is making for an extraordinarily convenient smokescreen for the various problems that we are facing, especially the difficulties in healthcare, haulage, food supply and foreign travel. The overwhelming contributor to most of these problems is not Covid, it is Brexit. If one were to be very cynical, one could argue that the reason why our Covid restrictions are so relaxed compared to the rest of Europe is to make it look like Covid is cause of the nation's problems beyond the pandemic, to mask the far bigger cause, which is Brexit.

Sounding like a broken record but it would be really nice to hear a genuine, tangible reason that truly affects our lives, that is better as a result of Brexit. Not flags, passport colours or abstract sovereignty (we were never in Schengen, so always controlled our borders and refused entry to thousands of undesirable EU citizens each year), but actual advantages that make us wealthier, safer, more efficient, etc.
Otter, I fully agree with you. What are the advantages? Are there any? I haven’t seen any.
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Pe.A
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Pe.A »

Katharine wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:23 am
Otter wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:45 am Covid is making for an extraordinarily convenient smokescreen for the various problems that we are facing, especially the difficulties in healthcare, haulage, food supply and foreign travel. The overwhelming contributor to most of these problems is not Covid, it is Brexit. If one were to be very cynical, one could argue that the reason why our Covid restrictions are so relaxed compared to the rest of Europe is to make it look like Covid is cause of the nation's problems beyond the pandemic, to mask the far bigger cause, which is Brexit.

Sounding like a broken record but it would be really nice to hear a genuine, tangible reason that truly affects our lives, that is better as a result of Brexit. Not flags, passport colours or abstract sovereignty (we were never in Schengen, so always controlled our borders and refused entry to thousands of undesirable EU citizens each year), but actual advantages that make us wealthier, safer, more efficient, etc.
Otter, I fully agree with you. What are the advantages? Are there any? I haven’t seen any.
All that extra money for the NHS... : /
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by loringa »

Otter wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:45 am Covid is making for an extraordinarily convenient smokescreen for the various problems that we are facing, especially the difficulties in healthcare, haulage, food supply and foreign travel. The overwhelming contributor to most of these problems is not Covid, it is Brexit. If one were to be very cynical, one could argue that the reason why our Covid restrictions are so relaxed compared to the rest of Europe is to make it look like Covid is cause of the nation's problems beyond the pandemic, to mask the far bigger cause, which is Brexit.
Probably too cynical, even for Mr Johnson, but it has certainly provided him with an excuse. Brexit was probably doomed to failure from the very beginning as the rest of the EU simply couldn't allow the UK to be better off outside the EU than within it, and the EU has far more influence and economic power than we do. But Brexit is an act of faith more than anything else; there are true believers who simply don't care about the realities. The World will eventually learn to live with Covid but the realities of Brexit will be with us for a long, long time.
Otter wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:45 am Sounding like a broken record but it would be really nice to hear a genuine, tangible reason that truly affects our lives, that is better as a result of Brexit. Not flags, passport colours or abstract sovereignty (we were never in Schengen, so always controlled our borders and refused entry to thousands of undesirable EU citizens each year), but actual advantages that make us wealthier, safer, more efficient, etc.
Do let us know if and when someone provides you with this evidence. For a while we appeared to be ahead of much of the EU with our vaccine roll out and this was touted as being the result of our not being bound by Brussels, but it appears that countries such as France now have a higher percentage of the population vaccinated, and Italy is offering vaccines to under 12s!
Otter
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Otter »

loringa wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:12 am But Brexit is an act of faith more than anything else; there are true believers who simply don't care about the realities. The World will eventually learn to live with Covid but the realities of Brexit will be with us for a long, long time.
I'm not one of those fervent Rejoiners, I am trying to be pragmatic - I accept the result, though I don't agree with it, and we have to get on with life. I really want to be proven wrong and hope that somewhere along the line, some genuine advantages and new opportunities come through Brexit. I just can't see any at all right now.
loringa
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by loringa »

Otter wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:30 am I'm not one of those fervent Rejoiners, I am trying to be pragmatic - I accept the result, though I don't agree with it, and we have to get on with life. I really want to be proven wrong and hope that somewhere along the line, some genuine advantages and new opportunities come through Brexit. I just can't see any at all right now.
I too accept the result of the referendum however much I thought it was an enormous error and doomed to failure from the beginning. Would I rejoin except on the terms we enjoyed when we left, probably not? It is a requirement of all new EU joiners that, amongst other things, they would have to become part of the Schengen area and adopt the Euro. I am not sure that I would want either and this is something that Scottish voters would do well to remember in the event of IndyRef2 ever going ahead. We could cope with Scotland in the Euro as Northern Ireland and Eire did for many years. I suspect, however, that Scotland in Schengen might have to result in a hard border and I can't see that being good for either nation.

I find it strange, however, that even the most fervent of Brexiteers now seem so very quiet on the promised benefits of our leaving. Cameron only went ahead with the referendum in the first place to make the 'b@stards' in the Tory Party shut up. This hasn't happened and, whilst I would usually rejoice in watching the Tories tear themselves apart, we lack an effective opposition and I would suggest that we don't need the Government distracted even further by internecine fighting.
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by Avon »

I for my part feel slightly differently; I shall not let Brexit be bygones.

I don’t accept the vote. Mendacious people motivated by their own gain swayed an electorate through deceit and false promises. The result will render Britain irrelevant in the years to come and its people (including my children) anticompetitive globally.

The most foolish and unpatriotic act available to people in the last lifetime was the opportunity to vote for Brexit.
  • I do not and shall not patronise businesses or enterprises whose owners chose Brexit.
    Politicians and commentators who chose Brexit are infra dig, damned in my eyes by their choice, regardless of what little merit they surface in the rest of their careers.
    My orbit of friends is increasingly influenced by the remain mindset – increasingly whenever we encounter a brexiteer you see rolled eyes and mental notes being made to socialise elsewhere.
    Distant family members who voted for Brexit are marginalised, closer ones who chose it are tolerated.
    I doubt I shall ever, ever in my life vote Tory – increasingly conservatism proves itself to be a base and anti-societal instinct.

I used to be proud of being a British European. Hidebound yeomen, idiot boomers, flag shaggers, xenophobes and the hard-of-thinking took that away – why forgive?

I avoid the echo-chamber effect of picking my own self-reinforcing sources of data and social media, and am open to discussing the plus side of Brexit. I’ll be delighted to when one iota of that benefit materialises. For now, Brexit is poison and I hope that historians excoriate those who chose it, equally I hope that they are able to record it as a short period of history before we saw sense and sought some form of re-union on undoubtedly worse terms.

Nota bene: There are quite a lot of people like me.
loringa
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Re: Freaky in the FT

Post by loringa »

Avon wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:27 pm I for my part feel slightly differently; I shall not let Brexit be bygones.
For now, Brexit is poison and I hope that historians excoriate those who chose it, equally I hope that they are able to record it as a short period of history before we saw sense and sought some form of re-union on undoubtedly worse terms.
Nota bene: There are quite a lot of people like me.
I suspect this is going to become the next big issue, particularly after the consequences of Brexit, including the less-understood second and third order effects, begin to bite. Do we stock with trying to make it work and attempt to avoid even more disruption, or do we go back with our tail between our legs and ask to rejoin on 'standard' terms?

As for one's interactions with those who supported Brexit and those who voted to remain, it is becoming increasingly difficult to identify the former group as they have gone so very quiet (including on this forum)! Within my (extended) family, as far as I know it was only a small number of the elderly who voted to leave and we have agreed not to talk about it as support for remain was otherwise pretty much universal. The same is true at work, the default setting is remain with only a small minority of friends and colleagues voting to leave. We tend to leave it alone unless we want to wind someone up; one can usually get a bite!
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